asking for help from ump behind mound on check swing

[WMU_05]

asking for advice...

...one of my major peeves working baseball is coaches/players INSISTING on me asking the umpire who is behind the mound (with a runner on) for help on a check swing. in my opinion, the reason why it is OK to ask the ump at first for help on a check swing is because he has a good angle on the bat going through the strike zone. an umpire behind the mound, unless the batter completely spins around, does not have the proper view of the strike zone in order to make a call on a check swing.

usually in this situation, i don't heed the defensive team's call for help because it is pointless, all he's going to do is say "no," or "yes," even though he doesn't have the proper angle. a couple umpires i have worked with this year suggested that I ask for help, just to appease the team. but why should I ask for pointless help? Once, I had a team ask for help from beyond the plate, which I granted, the ump amazingly said yes, and the opposing coach went nuts, saying the field ump didn't have the proper angle to make the call.

That is the reason why I stopped granting calls for help with the ump behind the mound because teams need to realize that he can't make a correct call from there on a borderline check swing and need to stop asking from that position. but other umps tell me to just do it to appease the teams.

any advice should be appreciated.

[Jeremiah]

You definetly need to ask for help if it's a reasonable check-swing. Actually, it has been shown that the BU in "B" or "C" is correct on the ruling most of the time.

I agree that if nothing else, you should just ask to appease the defensive team. Even if an umpire is in D and it's a right handed batter, you should still ask; if he has a swing he will call one. (You would never be in D and have to rule on a right handed batter, though.) As it's said on the Gerry Davis tapes, "The whole crew will often be thought of as bullheaded or worse if you refuse a check-swing appeal."

good luck!

-Jeremiah

[Rich]

Originally posted by WMU_05
asking for advice...

...one of my major peeves working baseball is coaches/players INSISTING on me asking the umpire who is behind the mound (with a runner on) for help on a check swing. in my opinion, the reason why it is OK to ask the ump at first for help on a check swing is because he has a good angle on the bat going through the strike zone. an umpire behind the mound, unless the batter completely spins around, does not have the proper view of the strike zone in order to make a call on a check swing.

usually in this situation, i don't heed the defensive team's call for help because it is pointless, all he's going to do is say "no," or "yes," even though he doesn't have the proper angle. a couple umpires i have worked with this year suggested that I ask for help, just to appease the team. but why should I ask for pointless help? Once, I had a team ask for help from beyond the plate, which I granted, the ump amazingly said yes, and the opposing coach went nuts, saying the field ump didn't have the proper angle to make the call.

That is the reason why I stopped granting calls for help with the ump behind the mound because teams need to realize that he can't make a correct call from there on a borderline check swing and need to stop asking from that position. but other umps tell me to just do it to appease the teams.

any advice should be appreciated.

If you are umpiring games played under OBR or NCAA rules you are REQUIRED to ask.

Just do it. Nothing good can come by refusing to ask.

BTW, I can see an offer from B and C just as well as I can from anywhere else. Cause that's what we are charged to judge -- an offer -- not some ridiculous arbitrary thing such as a bat coming in front of the plate or "through the zone" or wrists "breaking." Did the matter offer at the pitch?

Back in the mid 90s I had a partner refuse to check with me in a FED game, which is allowed. My partner ended up in a big argument and with an ejection all because he wouldn't ask. There was clearly no swing and a quick check would've moved us on to the next pitch.

But again, if you are using OBR or NCAA rules, you are REQUIRED to ask.

--Rich

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by WMU_05

That is the reason why I stopped granting calls for help with the ump behind the mound because teams need to realize that he can't make a correct call from there on a borderline check swing and need to stop asking from that position. but other umps tell me to just do it to appease the teams.

any advice should be appreciated.

1. Who are your to judge that an umpire in "B" or "C" cannot make an accurate call. Suppose the pitch is high and inside, F2 jumps to receive the ball and you are completely screened out. Now who has the better position?

but other umps tell me to just do it to appease the teams.

I do not know what your problem is. Asking your partner if he /she offered at the pitch takes all of what 5 seconds. It's simple; if your partner didn't have a good angle or isn't sure the batter offered, he /she will return with a safe sign and vice/versa.

The reason the other umpires are giving you good advice is because you will start to get a reputation of being arrogant, etc. The good game assignments might not come your way and if you do want to work you will doing a lot of traveling. In other words you will start getting the "leftovers" because the coaches will not want you at their games.

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by WMU_05

That is the reason why I stopped granting calls for help with the ump behind the mound because teams need to realize that he can't make a correct call from there on a borderline check swing and need to stop asking from that position. but other umps tell me to just do it to appease the teams.

any advice should be appreciated.

1. Who are your to judge that an umpire in "B" or "C" cannot make an accurate call. Suppose the pitch is high and inside, F2 jumps to receive the ball and you are completely screened out. Now who has the better position?

but other umps tell me to just do it to appease the teams.

I do not know what your problem is. Asking your partner if he /she offered at the pitch takes all of what 5 seconds. It's simple; if your partner didn't have a good angle or isn't sure the batter offered, he /she will return with a safe sign and vice/versa.

The reason the other umpires are giving you good advice is because you will start to get a reputation of being arrogant, etc. The good game assignments might not come your way and if you do want to work you will doing a lot of traveling. In other words you will start getting the "leftovers" because the coaches will not want you at their games.

Pete Booth

You're the PU and you get blocked on a high pitch with a poor F2 or the ball bounces, you flinch, F2 jumps and you don't see anything.

Everyone knows he swung except for you - who are you going to ask?

Your partner. Who cares where he is. He had a much better angle than you did.

There's nothing lost by asking - plenty gained by asking.

Hey, if I get a partner who's sleeping, I'll ask him just to keep him in the game (g)

Thanks
David

[mcrowder]

90% of the time, I'll ask for help on this even when I don't need it.

But ... you asked: "Why not ask?" On those other 10%, I'm working with a 16-year old who has too much to do already in watching the pitcher and making sure he's in the right spot to watch the batter for a swing as well. I don't want him guessing if he finds he didn't see it, but doesn't want to be embarrassed.

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
90% of the time, I'll ask for help on this even when I don't need it.

But ... you asked: "Why not ask?" On those other 10%, I'm working with a 16-year old who has too much to do already in watching the pitcher and making sure he's in the right spot to watch the batter for a swing as well. I don't want him guessing if he finds he didn't see it, but doesn't want to be embarrassed.

So you're going to judge whether or not your partner is capable of making a call. On steals of second are you going to jump in and make a call for him?

It's his job. You're required to ask. Do it. He'll learn to keep his nose in the game one way or another.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by mcrowder
90% of the time, I'll ask for help on this even when I don't need it.

But ... you asked: "Why not ask?" On those other 10%, I'm working with a 16-year old who has too much to do already in watching the pitcher and making sure he's in the right spot to watch the batter for a swing as well. I don't want him guessing if he finds he didn't see it, but doesn't want to be embarrassed.

If he didn't see it - give me a break. Most kids aren't watching the pitcher (PU can do that) and are watching the batter.

Who cares if he's embarrassed? I bet he'll be watching the next time. What's the worse thing that can happen except for some loud mama hollering at him (wait they're going to do that anyway)

As I stated above - I'm the umpire training coordinator in our area and one of the things that I tell my guys is to "ask you partner when he's not expecting it just to see if he's awake."

Screw it up is the best way to learn. You're not teaching him anything by not asking - well except for NOT to ask when you need to.

Example: I got called on spur of moment to do 13-14 All Star Tournament, guys wife was in hospital.

In pregame I tell my young U1 be ready, if I'm in doubt I will ask on a check swing. His reply was "if you ask me I'm going with what you have" HELLO! I said No no no. You tell me what you saw. We're not in a cover-up together. I'm asking you because I didn't see something.

Another example of BAD TRAINING!

If you don't see it you have to ask someone! As Rich said above, if you're under certain rule codes you are required by rule to ask.

Thanks
David


[Edited by David B on Jul 7th, 2004 at 10:58 AM]

[Baseball_North]

One of my pet peeves of watching MLB games on TV is the analysis of the check swing.

Here in Toronto, ex-Blue Jay pitcher, Tom Cerutti is our colour man on Sportsnet (who covers most of the Jays' games). Usually when there is a questionable check swing call, they will go to a side-angled camera, to attempt to show the bat crossing the plate.

And he always says... "that was the right call by the 1st base umpire, (enter umpire's name), as the bat head did cross the front of the plate." .... or vise versa

I know there a lot of "myths" such as "hands are part of the bat", etc.... but this one really gets to me.

I try to tell everyone on my team when I'm playing.... you either

(a) offer at the pitch (and therefore swing)
or
(b) don't offer at the pitch (and therefore don't swing)

Maybe that is the problem that the original poster of this thread is having.

From P2 or P3 (I think in the states, you guys refer to them as B and C positions), it would be harder to see if the bat crossed the plate. But if wouldn't be harder to see if the batter offered at the pitch or not.

Maybe this is the problem.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

As pointed out by DavidB, this needs to be pregamed with any new partner. There is a lot of crappy training out there and this is a myth that is very prevalent - the BU can't judge a check swing unless he's behind 1st. As promulgated here and at good training camps, that myth is WRONG. Your partner can tell and he can make that judgement.

I tend to rarely ask because I nearly always call them from behind the plate "YES! You went." I recommend you practice that statement and use it often.

They only ask when you call a ball so try your best to avoid the situation by calling strikes.

This is another great advantage of the Gerry Davis stance - you rarely get blocked by the catcher.

[DG]

For once, I agree with everyone. I always tell my partner in pre-game that I might come to you in B or C on a check swing. If you can't tell give the safe sign and say nothing. If he did I want that strike I missed back.

I was in C a couple weeks ago in a summer league of college players using wood bats. On a check swing situation the pitcher turned around and asked could they appeal to me, I said no, only my partner could. He didn't.
A couple innings later, when that team was at bat, the same thing happened, but this time the defense appealed to my partner, who appealed to me, and I said "yes he did", while raising my fist. They went nuts, claimed I had told them they could not appeal to me. I simply had to explain to the coach who came out that they failed to hear the rest of my earlier comment, ie "only my partner could". It was definitely a pitch on which I could tell he swung, and my partner was blocked out by a catcher standing up. It was only the 2nd strike so I don't know what the fuss was about. Bur order was restored and we went on.