Yesterday at church, a friend - Joe - came to me with an interesting situation that arose in a game on Saturday. Joe is on the dish in a two man crew. R1, no outs. Ground ball to second, flip to short for the out, relay to first, bang-bang play, out is called. Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe.

The coach came out to discuss the call and the base ump called Joe over and said "I missed that one. Say that the 1st baseman was off the bag so we can get it right." Joe told me the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definately in contact with the bag when the throw was received.

Would you lie in that situation to cover for your partner?

Why lie? If the base ump felt the runner beat the play and the plate ump felt the runner beat the play and they have a conference I wouldn't have a problem agreeing with the base ump.

I wouldn't lie about the pulled foot nor would I bring it up. Let the base ump change the call to safe and go on from there after HE ejects the defensive manager. G.

Oh my God! First we want to "discuss everything" then "get the call right". Now we want to know if we should lie to do it? The discussions latley have me wondering if there is a sudden swing from being umpires to being politicians!

Call what you see!

Joe wouldn't lie either. The base ump would not publically admit he missed the call and was trying to put it off on the pulled foot. The double play stood.

Its a judgement call, get the coach off the field and play ball...

I argued in the other post that a pulled foot can and should be reviewed with other umpire (if the FU desides to), because in honesty the plate ump has the best view of the foot and the base... but the TIMING of an out/safe play should never be reviewed with the plate umpire... so I don't think this falls under the "get it right"...

Tell him to stick with his call, its a judgement call...

"Oh my God! First we want to "discuss everything" then "get the call right". Now we want to know if we should lie to do it? The discussions latley have me wondering if there is a sudden swing from being umpires to being politicians! "

You take this way too seriously...

Yes, I do take my job as an umpire seriously - for the last 20 years I've said if you can't take the 2 hours on the field seriously then you need to sell the equipment and become a spectator.

Ad Finitum

The two hours on the field are important... going nuts in a message board on the internet isn't so important...

Also going nuts on people for what they do with their two hours on the field isn't the same thing either...

When a legit questions come up on the board we should treat it as a rules test question. We want to get it exactly right. It is like the saying goes for players, you play how you practice, this is part of our practice here and we should take it seriously. I cuoldn't believe that someone was asking if it was OK to lie either. Just listen to how stupid that sounds, "Is it OK to lie?"

Yes, you should lie when you blow a call.

You should tell them that you went to training and bought a rule book and read it and understand it and earned the patch you are wearing and deserve more money and love penalizing others for doing just what you describe.

I can't believe that I read this! Have a little pride. When is it ever okay to cheat the rules on a ball field?
Umpire the game like your pastor/rabbi/grandfather was in the crowd - watching you. Better, maybe someone has a video camera and we'll get to see you on "What were they thinking?" when the Bubba from the crowd pummels you for acting like an eight year old.

I've seen the light!
 

Peter,

I don't think the irony was lost on any of us that know how to read.

WCB




Hey, I've got to do something to get my number of posts higher, otherwise I won't be taken seriously!

I will read the rest of the posts later, but respond first. Joe is PU. "Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe" and BU wanted him to say that he was off the bag so they can get it right, but then Joe told you "the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definitely in contact with the bag when the throw was received". Sounds like Joe, the PU, can't make up his mind.

Now if I am the PU and if my BU has just made an out call and wants to discuss it with me, because the manager is complaining, then I am going to tell my BU that I am not going to tell him what I thought I saw, because it is not relevant, and we are not going to change the call. We are going to tell the coach that after consultation we have decided it was a very close call and we will not be changing it. After our discussion the BU will also understand that if he wants help from me on this call he has to ask before he makes the call, and only if the ball beat the runner and he is unsure if 1B had his foot on the bag.

And if asked this question in church, I would have to say "never lie".

If asked this question on the ballfield, I would have to say "never lie".

If asked this question in a bar, I would have to say "never lie".

Good Call
 

DG,
I think you are on the right track. A very smart man once told me that the measure of a man's character is what he does when he thinks no one is watching. I think the baseball parallel could be - the measure of an umpire's character is will he lie to fix a bad call.

and for what's it worth...that very smart man also told me that men who choose to use four letter words, do so because they are not intelligent enough to use others.

DG,

I apologize for giving any indication that Joe was indecisive. He said he watched the FPSR at second then swiveled to first to watch for the pulled foot/swipe tag. He felt the batter beat the throw and was surprised by the out call, although it was a bang-bang play.

The whole thrust of this question is that the base ump kicked the call, knew he kicked the call, but did not have the courage to correct his error. He asked the PU to compromise his integrity by lying in the interest of "getting it right".

P.S. As I am sure you have surmised, this is a hypothetical situation made up to generate more discussion about what lengths should be taken to get the call right.

Wait a minute. Its a bang bang play at first and the PU who is half way to the mound can see that the batter beat the throw.

I don't even want to go there.

Its a bang bang play live with the call.

Its BU's call all the way.

PU keep his mouth shut and return to the plate for the next pitch.

And if a coach asks me, I'm going to tell him, "ask the BU, he made the call."

This is getting ridiculous.

thanks
David

The only reason I would discuss this with BU is to tell him that he has made a call and we will live with it. Because we discussed it, and did not change the call, it gives appearance that agreement is reached, without having to lie about it. Plus, it gives me good opportunity to make sure BU knows that if he wants help on a call he has to ask before he makes the call, not after. This would have been a pre-game emphasis that he forgot in the heat of the bang-bang play.

Sorry but I disagree
 

We are at the game to umpire. I don;t need the BU coming to me after every close pitch just to give the appearance that agreement has been reached.

If I'm the PU, I have responsibilities. That does not include making sure that we are in agreement or give the appearance of agreement on every call.

My BU surely needs to know I support him, and if its a pulled foot then surely he can ask for help etc.,

But, on a <b>"bang bang play"</b> as the original poster said the play at first was, then that is BU's call all the way. There is nothing to discuss.

If BU is a young umpire, I might say loudly "good call" just to keep his confidence up, but I'm not going to even hint that I have anything to do with the play.

If a coach wants a discussion, then he can go to the umpire who made the call period.

If the BU wants to talk to me, then I'll quickly answer his questions and then continue the game. We as umpires don't ever need to give the impression that we call the game by committee.

BU has responsibilities and PU has responsibilities. The only things that need to be discussed are rule interpretations.

Thanks
David

Asking for assistance on a foot pull may save you time for processing a call but in the end it may also make you look like you don't know what was up...cuz if you ask for a footpull and you get no and you call him safe they are going to question what is up.

So basically what I am saying is don't ask for assistance on a call about a footpull or a tag if you know you are going to get the answer of yes he was tagged or no the foot wasn't pulled. you know that you fluffed it.. either remake the call right there...your judgment is going to be attacked either way, but if you get the call right thats one thing, letting another coach feel that you are being coerced by the opposing team is the other.. just live with it, or change it before anything is said (you are going to look like an idiot either way but if ray charles could see that he was safe and you banged him changing it before anything is said might help..)

main thing is slow down with the bang bang plays and think things through about where the ball was where the foot was and what not you wouldn't have to change a call that you fluffed. it don't matter whether you make the call as the play happens, a couple seconds/mins later, or next week, as long as you get the dang call to mirror the play you just saw...cuz calling it like you see it is the most important integrity part of baseball...

every call could go against one team but if at the games end you could walk out the parking lot with your partner to change and get ready to leave and are capable of saying i called the game to the best of what i knew...then you did your job well

...one thing for sure, if my partner asked me in conference, on the field, to lie to cover up a stich like that, that would be the last time I ever worked with him (or he with me). That's BS.

Advice
 

ecurebel -

Not sure where you work or what level...

So basically what I am saying is don't ask for assistance on a call about a footpull or a tag if you know you are going to get the answer of yes he was tagged or no the foot wasn't pulled.

Why, if you didn't have the angle, why wouldn't you ask. Ego???

you know that you fluffed it.. either remake the call right there...your judgment is going to be attacked either way, but if you get the call right thats one thing, letting another coach feel that you are being coerced by the opposing team is the other..

No...the opposing team won't have a chance to influence me if I do it right. Hit, fielder throws...catch...look at my partner who is up the line looking at the back end..."Did he have the bag?" make my call. Not difficult and pride should not be part of it. I would rather look bad and get the call right, than guess and get the call wrong, just to look like I know what I'm doing. Then, you will have one coach screaming at you!

main thing is slow down with the bang bang plays and think things through about where the ball was where the foot was and what not you wouldn't have to change a call that you fluffed.

Slow down...good advice...but what if you don't have a good angle? Fluffing it has nothing to do with asking for another look and then making the call. All you are asking for is whether the guy had the bag or a tag. It is your judgement that calls the final play.

every call could go against one team but if at the games end you could walk out the parking lot with your partner to change and get ready to leave and are capable of saying i called the game to the best of what i knew...then you did your job well

Not if your pride prevented you from asking for another look when you know you were screened or out of position.

In these kind of situations(judgement calls) here's how I think it should happen:
1) The umpire whose call it is makes the call first, according to what HE saw. After all that's why he's there in the first place.
2) If one of the managers/coaches thinks that the calling umpire missed the call because of bad angle, distance, etc. then that manager/coach asks the calling umpire to ask the other umpire who may have had a better angle, etc.
3) The calling umpire then has the option to either ask for help or not. If he does not ask for help that's it. The calling umpire trusts his own judgement, and that he got it right. However, if he does ask for help then in essence he is saying "From my perspective this is what I saw, but I realize that the other man had a better look. Therefore I am deferring to what he saw and how he judges the play."

This kind of sitch happened to me this season. Cal Ripken(OBR) league, R2 no outs. Small field so I'm in C behind and between 2B and F6. BR hits a slow tapper fair up 1B line. F1 fields the ball and tries to tag BR running by him instead of tossing to F3. Even though I'm 70-80' away from the play and have about the worst angle to the play in the entire park, it's my call. I replay the entire scene in my head stand slowly and signal safe because that's what I saw from my lousy perspective. I don't ask the PU to make the call in my stead, because that's not why I'm there. The defensive coach yells out "Hey Blue, you had a terrible angle on that! Ask the other guy!" I know I had a bad angle and asked the PU whou had followed the BR up a few steps. I pointed to him and he rang the BR up. We got the call right without hurt feelings, controversy, etc. Now if I had refused to ask the PU then I would have to live or die with my call myself. But as I understand it, I was the only one on that ball field who could ask the PU what he saw, and by the simple act of asking I was deferring to his judgement.