Here is the situation....

In my game last night, I go in to pinch hit for the ninth hitter in our order. It is the bottom of the 7th inning. 2 outs.

I chop a crappy hit that bounces off the plate, and I manage to beat it out at 1B for an infield single. The coach of the other team then calls time and goes to the umpire. No one knew what the problem was. After a discussion between the umpire and the visiting coach, the PU said that we batted out of order and that there were 3 outs.

There was confusion, but the defense left the field, and my team took the field for the top of the 8th. While out team was warming up in the field, I just passed by the umpires (I know them, have umpired with them on numerous occasions), and asked them what the problem was.

It turned out that our eighth and ninth batters were incorrectly placed on the official line-up card. Their names were in the right order, but my coach accidently flipped their numbers. So I was talking to the umpires, and I told them, "shouldn't we just be going by the name on the line-up card". Then my coach came over and started talking, and the PU said that we were right, and the name on the card is what matters, and told my team to get back up to bat to finish the bottom of the 7th inning.

So my question is.... what actually has more power with respect to line-up screw-ups? Do you go by the name or by the number?

Also, wouldn't it be too late for them to complain, if I pinch-hit and completed by at bat?

You should be going by the number, the name just an extra way of identifying the player.

But why was this not noticed at the plate confrence before the game? This is why you look over the linup cards.

OBR - Each player of the offensive team shall bat in the order that his name appears in his team's batting order.

OBR 6.01a "Each player of the offensive team shall bat in the order that his NAME appears in his teams batting order."

By your method a player could change jersey's on the bench and then come back latter in the game after taking a break.

Well it's not really my method, because I was playing in the game, not umpiring in it.

But.... you know in the rule book where it shows examples of batting out of order? Where it says the batting order is: Able, Baker, Charles, Daniel, etc....

The use the names there.... maybe it is just for simplicity, but I can't think of anywhere in the rule book where it specifies if it is batting out of turn if the wrong player comes to bat, or the wrong number on the players back.

I think common sense must rule. I think mostly you should go by the name when it comes down to it. The numbers can often be wrong, with jersey changes or not matching up with the proper person on the substitution list.

I think the bottom line is that when you notice a mistake on a line up card, you should not nitpick it. This is not basketball, where everything has to be perfect on the scorecard and there is a defined penalty for each mistake. I would just figure out what the problem was and fix it. I have had times where the lineups were typed and someone changed a number during the season or someone got moved to another level or became healed from an injury.

Just make sure at the start of the game that you have the right number of players in the batting order. Make sure you know who the DH is batting for. Outside of that, keep it simple.

Peace

Names are necessary; numbers are a courtesy.

You go by the name not the number.

Didn't this rule come about because back in the day, players did not wear numbers?

OBR
It wouldn't be too late to complain (had you actually BOO)
until a pitch had been delivered to the next batter (of either team), or until a play or attempted play had occured (like a pick-off attempt). Defense can appeal BOO if neither of these has occured before the appeal.

Remember, if BOO is recognized before an at bat is complete, the proper batter can then replace the improper batter and resume with whatever the count is.

Thanks for the reply, but I realize that.

I was saying wouldn't it be too late because the batter that would have BOO already completed his at-bat, and I had pinch-hit and completed my at bat. After the first pitch I took, the BOO would have been nullified.

I wasn't BOO, the visiting team was arguing that the batter BEFORE me was BOO.

Stop, collaborate and listen...
 

This is a sh*t call on the coach's part, but now we're here...Play on and explain to the defensive coach that you appreciate his vigilance, but the fact is that the guy is a pinch hitter batting FOR THE 8th BATTER IN THE ORDER. He reported, batted and the number nine batter was not allowed an at bat, so how was he out of order???

OBR says that the batter must appear in the order his name appears...TRUE

but, the uniform must contain a number only - names are the bonus here.

and, we know that deception wasn't the basis for this error, so we correct the matter. The intent of this rule was to prevent a team from batting in whatever order they chose - this was not the case here. Our job is to interpret the rules and apply them.

Finally, since most of our house and school leagues have a communicable disease policy (no blood on the uniform), a player can exchange jerseys and continue to play. The umpires kicked this one...

Yeah I knew that one, I put it backwards. The original post said that the names were out of place on the original lineup card. Now isn't that the one the umpire has in his pocket? How would the manager know that the numbers were backwars on the card in the umpire's pocket? Something is missing here.

It doesn't matter, he was a pinch hitter...
 

Read my previous post...

he was batting for the spot in the order - since the last batter was legal and the next did not get an opportunity to bat, it doesn't matter. He was an announced substitute batting properly.

How to cheat
 

All;

With all of the confusion about numbers, I am reminded of a situation that occurred in a Legion program about 10 years ago.

A nearby Legion team had only two black players on it and they were both the same height and build. (They were not related.) To a white person not paying attention, they could have been twins. To a black person paying attention, they were not at all alike. Both played outfield so the other team never had any reason to notice them up close except when they were batting.

One of them was the best hitter on the team and the other, although a starter, was close to the bottom in terms of batting average. The poor hitter was also a relief pitcher when not riding the bench or playing outfield.

The coach batted the best hitter fourth in the lineup and the other guy was 8th or 9th. In critical situations where the the weaker hitter was due up, he would have them switch jerseys. If the weaker black player was on the bench that day, he would "enter" the stronger black player with the weaker's jersey number. That way, he could bat the slugger twice in the lineup. No one caught on, not the umpires, not the coaches, and not the players. 90+ percent of the players and coaches were white or Asian in the Legion program where they played.

Near the end of the season, the coach tried this trick with a team that had a black assistant coach. Dumb move. That coach caught on right away but could not convince the umpires. Both players lied about their names. The team backed them up so the umpires played on. Players don't carry drivers licenses on the field.

Later on, an investigation showed that the whole team had been involved with this chirade from the beginning of the season. They would gather in a group in the dugout to shield the two players changing uniform jersies.

I don't remember exactly how this was handled but the coach did not return the next year. I wonder what part of the Legion pledge that he was upholding when he thought up this scheme.

Peter

I don't know how I would discover this at the plate conference. I am checking for 9 players, numbers not duplicated, pitcher identified, and if there is a DH permitted, who is he batting for. If two player's numbers are transposed near the bottom of the lineup, how am I supposed to know that? The names define the order.

It is the bottom of the 7th before this comes up and it comes up after a pinch hitter bats? The numbers have been reversed for 7 innings and nothing said? This should have brought up by the defense the first time the these batters batted in succession. Also, how can you have BOO after a pinch hitter bats? He is batting for whomever is up. And if you are going to have BOO the defense needs to bring this up before they all leave the field. Multiple SNAFU's, IMO.

Ya, I have no idea why they didn't bring it up earlier in the game. (the visiting manager)

It's probably because we smoked them in their park a few days earlier, and were beating them again in the back end of the home-and-home.

I believe I said it all SEVERAL POSTS AGO. He is a pinch hitter. He has legally entered the game and is batting after the last correct hitter. THERE IS NO BATTING OUT OF ORDER!

I can't believe this was even an issue. If we read the posts before we launch ours, we might see that the question has been answered.

Sorry that we upset you.
 

But going off in a few different directions is what we all do here. I know you are new at this, but you will get the hang of it.

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Peace

Rut - grow up.

Jumpmaster,

We <b>always go off on tangents on this board.</b> We have been doing it for years, we will continue to do it. If you have less than 100 posts and are getting upset by what is common and accepted, than I am not the person that needs to grow up. I am just telling the truth and sharing what goes on here. Look at the other sport boards at this site, some are talking about other sports, politics, what folks did at a camp during after hours. This is what we do. We do not just discuss everything that comes to mind. I understand that umpiring is about egos, but that is what we do here. We discuss all kind of things, while answering questions. Read what you like, throw out what you do not. At least post 1000 times before you start telling the rest of us how this place should work.

Peace

We always go off on tangents on this board.

That seems to be the problem. When a question is asked and answered and you don't bother to read the follow ups, but just post an answer that has beeen discussed already, that is a waste of bandwidth.

If you have less than 100 posts and are getting upset by what is common and accepted, than I am not the person that needs to grow up....At least post 1000 times before you start telling the rest of us how this place should work.

By that logic, I should not be listening to anything you say about baseball since I have been umpiring twice as long as you. Come back and talk to us when you've worked at least twenty years of baseball.

I would rather have 100 posts that people could actually read and learn from than 3000 of your grammar and intelligence challenged tripe.

Rut;

Jumpmaster has made over 100 posts. You have just added one to your count of hundreds of lies told.

You also wrote:

"We do not just discuss everything that comes to mind."

Now I understand. You, the great Rut, are able to discuss things that don't come to your mind???!!!??? That is a remarkable ability. Run your mouth and your keyboard without thinking. No wonder your ramblings are so unintelligible.

And your final statement is the most revealing of all. In Rutville, the man with the most posts is the most intelligent/knowledgable. With your 3500+ posts, I assume that you are trying to prove the old saw about monkeys and typewriters.

"Put enough monkeys in front of enough typewriters and sooner or later one of them will produce the complete works of Shakespeare."

In light of the above statement and your 3500+ posts, it's truly amazing that you have yet to write something intelligent. From that, a wag might conclude that you are dumber than a monkey.

Peter

Careful...
 

Am I the only one here that has seen Jeff post the quote

"Don't confuse activity with achievement."?

What exactly does that mean?

I think that most of us would believe it to mean: just because someone has the time to post a couple thousand times, doesn't make their input useful or literate.

I offered a definitive answer to a baseball question. There was no tangent, DG just repeated what we had already discussed.

This is almost as irritating as copying an entire post and pasting it into your response. We know what was said. If you are responding to a sentence or two, go ahead and copy/paste it. But we don't need ten people copying the original post. But, I guess I shouldn't have an opinion because I don't have your history on this site.

I did not realize that you were in charge of this site.


WOW!!! You have worked 20 years of baseball? And this is your only sport? WOW, I am impressed, NOT!! I realize that you think this is some kind of wonderful accomplishment and it is to a point, but that does not mean a thing. When you started, there was no such thing as the internet (at least available to the larger public). So who cares what you were doing when you started or over your career. I have officiated almost 10 years in 3 sports. I have been on this board most of that time. And folks much wiser than you or I come here with much more experience than your 20 years and go off on tagents and take conversations to other topics. This is what we do.

I know you are not trying come here and rip me about my grammar and what I post here. You have already had 2 officials call you out here that have a lot more years than just 20 call you out about your professionalism and competence as an umpire. And the more you talk, the more you make it obvious who you are. And the more and more it is clear that you are an individual that has little respect with our peers off this site. You can call me all kind of names here, but take that off this board and with people that have worked with me. Tell me how far you get with that?

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Whatever baldy. I will make sure when I get your age, to at the very least be able to invest in some hair. But I will not have that problem. ;)

Peace

Re: Careful...
 

I commented on several points that I did not think had been adequately covered by previous posters. The point that names define the order, not numbers was well covered.

1) I am not checking numbers at pregame, and have no way to do so. I am counting players and making sure there are no names duplicated. If two player's numbers are transposed I have no way of knowing.

2) I expect this to come up before the 7th inning.

3) A pinch hitter is not BOO. This may have been covered previously, I don't recall.

4) You need to address BOO before the defense leaves the field.

And leave me out of this cat fight...

Re: Careful...
 

I am not passing off my posts as achievement. But I do think if you have been around more than a season, you might realize that we do talk about other things and go off on things that have been answered 100 times over. Again, you throw stones, then you do not like when someone throws them back at you. :rolleyes:

So. Maybe he did not click on "Submit Reply" before you answered the question. Happens all the time here. And who really cares. Get over it. We are all human here. We are not all 20 year Minor League Umpires like yourself. We do tend to overlook things from time to time.

Take some Anger Management courses. You get upset at a lot of things that go on in the internet world. First you complain about my "Big Dog" post (which had nothing to do with you btw), then you are upset at something that has happen here from the very beginning.


O...K. You need to find a hobby or a women. If these are the things you have to worry about, well you really are not getting away from the Minor League Baseball field. People are dying all over the world and people are sick and you are worried about who repeats some content in a post?

Peace

Look around - they're laughing AT you!
 

WOW!!! You have worked 20 years of baseball? ...When you started, there was no such thing as the internet (at least available to the larger public). So who cares what you were doing when you started or over your career.

So, because I started umpiring when the internet was in its infancy, I have no sense of baseball knoweldge. yeas, that computes.

I have officiated almost 10 years in 3 sports

According to Rut logic, you've beeen at it for 30 years?

You have already had 2 officials call you out here that have a lot more years than just 20 call you out about your professionalism and competence as an umpire.

Really, who? BTW, experience is more than years. I have not encountered too many Minor League guys here.


You can call me all kind of names here, but take that off this board and with people that have worked with me. Tell me how far you get with that? Several FVB members talked about you at the State series. Their comments filtered back through my FVB friend - WHO WAS THERE! They say that on the high school field you do a decent job. They are concerned with your off field shenanigans (right, Bob, FVB9 and DA?). They are embarassed that you have put the spotlight of the nation on Chicago umpiring. They may not like all of what I've said, but they find little fact that can be argued.

I'm fairly certain that most everyone here is tired of our pissing contest, but you just can't help yourself. I post contructive answers and advice and you immediately jump on it. You call Peter names in a vain attempt to humiliate him. Do you think that people are laughing at him because of a lack of follicles or you at your lack of wit? It is simply amazing that you keep at this. Do you ever offer anything of use here?

Re: Look around - they're laughing AT you!
 

No WCB. But I feel that working year round, working with people in different sports gives me a great deal of knowledge that someone just sticking to one sport will not get. I also think this is the very reason that most of the very good officials work multiple sports. Every different sport season I learn something new about officiating in general and I can apply to another sport. I am happy that you have worked 20 years, but you seemed to have done that in one part of the year. Unless you move to Florida or Louisiana in the Chicago winters, there is a lot of time of the year they are not playing baseball. Basketball I can officiate 12 months out of the year. When I am not doing baseball, I can work Football well into November, with or without snow on the ground.


Jurrasic Referee and Carl both called you out. They both said not so glowing things about your posts and your attitude. Jurrassic can tell you himself how many years he has officiated in multiple sports, but it was much more than 20 years. We all know Carl's resume to some extent. I have not always gotten along with both of them. But I have always respected their point of view on many issues. But even when I disagree, it is not personal with them or more than what the discussion is about. We can disagree without calling each other names and accusing folks of being terrible. Especially when we have never met in person.

You can come here and tell the world about the way you see things. I do not have moniker with a location in my name. I only have my name and only represent myself. I really do not care what others think, especially from a baseball perspective. My umpiring experience is not wrapped up into one are of a state. I have umpired many areas outside of Chicago. I did well there, I will continue to do well. But also think of it this way. I have not worked a baseball game since June 3, 2004, which happen to be my Regional. With all due respect, if I never work another baseball game a day in my life, it will not be a major tragedy in my life. I went to the State Finals on Friday (because it was right down the street from my house), helped with the IACAO Booth for the second game (where Bob was working) and left for a Basketball Tournament in Peoria. I understand that they might have concerns, but who really cares. Because I like to work baseball do I can hit the basketball camp season in reasonable shape and work on many game management skills that apply to basketball and football. So you can throw out all the names you like, but until they start assigning all the area basketball conferences and do not hire me as a result, then I might, just might worry.


Let them be. Because everything we have talked about when it comes to your organization or any organization, is the very same thing I have said to people in person. So if you ever get in a conversation with me about different groups or specific topics, chances are that I have had the same conversation with those you mentioned and with other "no name" individuals. And considering the situations we are faced with in our area, I am really not sure that is their major focus. But again, you heard 3rd and 4th party conversations.


I really do not care what they are tired of. I am tired of a lot of things that go on here, and I do not post them all the time.


You do not seem to like it very much, do you? If I remember, I have never met you (you claim we have, but it just goes to show how important in the Chicago seen you are to me). You claim to know about me as an umpire, but you have never seen me work. You wanted to see my schedule on the "other board" because you thought what I had to say was stupid and dumb. You said I would never get a playoff game, and I did. Even when I personally thought it would not happen and was not expecting it. You questioned my motives about posting a link to some pictures of a game I worked. You seemed to take all of this to heart, but now you want to cry foul when I do the exact same thing to you? I understand that baseball is important to you, and it should be. You have appartantly accomplished some great things. But to try to put down umpires that do not fit your point of view is insulting to all of us. Not everyone has a desire to work your level or is disappointed if they do not make it to pro ball. And you talk about how many years you have worked, but one of the varsity games I had this past year, the umpire I worked has worked about 30 years. The home coach got all over his behind for ejecting fans and having very thin skin on the field. But according to you, I should bow down to all that have worked more than 20 years. That very same coach said to me after I had worked 3 of his game, "you just cannot get a good partner." But I guess you are the person I should listen to.

Yes, when you are not posting or folks like Peter are not worried about what I say.

I have been on this board (Football, Basketball and Baseball) for years. I have had many folks approach me and tell me about posts and laugh at people like yourself. I have had many "discussions" with people over the years. Just like Peter and others that have been here for a long time. Many do not post on the McGriff board because of those "discussions" they had and I was never around. I have worked with several posters on all these sites and have had nothing but good experiences with all of them. I have never met people on the other boards like the folks on the Baseball side. Maybe that is because baseball umpires have a totally different approach to the game and tend to be much more confrontational than other sports. But for you to question my contributions, when folks like you jump all over guys that work LL, Pony, American Legion, Travel, Freshman or just a Regional for that matter (I did not realize we all started working the State Finals), you worry about what I have to contribute. I would never and never have jumped all over someone for that they work is below my current level and then call their baseball "not real." But guys like yourself do that here all the time. I have answered several questions more than just this season, and you have called all my imput as stupid. But you have about 50 posts to your name, but I do not know what I am doing or I have never posted anything of substance. Whatever man. I can see why people say the things about you in their personal contact dealings. And it is another reason why folks say the same about your organization.

Peace

Logic, not evident in Wheaton.
 

Gentlemen (and Jeff),

I am finished arguing this point. He's a moron.

What began as a question about line up cards has devolved into a he said / Rut said. You can read, make up your mind.

It is true that I have only posted as WindyCityBlue for the last year. I was here and actually used my legal name for about two years (when this site had a different name). I'm not new to this form of exchange, but view it as an opportunity to instruct and learn. I carry a full NCAA and Minor league schedule, in addition to working about 20 or so high school varsity games each year. I offer my advice as a way for others to get better. Much like the law, I recognize that different interpretation of the rules will always exist. Most of what I try to convey comes from experience. I do not belittle those that work lower level baseball. My arguments with them stem from either their lack of experience, committment or knowledge. I do not ask that you follow my path, I do ask that if I offer an opinion it comes from a professional perspective. As umpires, we know that we may be right, but cannot convince the rest of those watching. I do not have to work mulitple sports to appreciate baseball umpiring. My grandfather used to ask me, "Would you rather be the best at one thing or just okay at a couple." I chose to become the best I could at baseball. I'm still learning, but have accomplished most of my dreams. If you read back, I've tried to help jumpmaster and a couple others get to theirs.

Re: Logic, not evident in Wheaton.
 

Windy;

Most here reached that conclusion long ago. I recall that when Carl Childress first bumped up against Rut a few years ago he thought Rut was putting us on with his stupidity. Carl was convinced that Rut was deliberately acting stupid and was a troll planted to cause controversy with his outrageously moronic statements.

I have visions of T. Alan posing as Rut just to get a craphouse going. (T.Alan had been known to do that from time to time. Ask him about Lolly Tessa Ventors.)

Only when Bob Jenkins stepped forward to confirm that Rut was a real "person", did it dawn on us that it was possible for such a large amount of rampant stupidity to exist in one brain.

In that regard, McGriffs has surpassed this forum in dealing with Rut. Gary has taken to deleting all Rut posts as well as those of his tormenters. For now, this forum is Rut's only outlet so it will probably get worse.

I find this situation most humorous. The board that has been known for allowing everything, has censored Rut. The board that has been known for enforcing decorum, has become Rut's dumping ground for his rantings.

As Carl would say, Lah me

Peter

Peter and WCB, you guys will never understand.
 

Well, if I am a dumbass, I am a pretty successful dumbass.

I work in many conferences and many sports. I was asked to be the Referee on my Football crew when we had to get rid of someone. I have been asked to speak or help out with many camps or clinics. I get many big games in all my sports. Am I the best official around? I will let you decide that. There have been many that have worked with me. There have been many that have seen me work. I openly admit that baseball is the step child of my 3 sports. Because it does not take the dedication or drive to be successful at it. So if I am a horrible umpire, who cares. I have worked exactly what I have wanted to my entire career. I have never worked a season where most of my games were not varsity. I worked college ball my very first year and maintained that schedule the following year. I usually get my baseball schedule in March a week or so before the season starts. This past year was the first year I can think I had games in December. I have in my short career worked a Football Playoff as an "Registered Official" two years ago. I worked my first Regional Chmapionship in Basketball last year, during my first year as a Certified Official. I work in about every conference in Chicago in basketball. In Baseball I recieved my first IHSA Assigned playoff, but worked two before in my first and second year when schools assigned it. I only work a few conferences in baseball, mostly in my backyard or less than an hour away from where I live. I do not like to travel for baseball that much. But have been known to go further on Saturday Mornings. Give me a great basketball game, I will go just about anywhere. I have a basketball game this coming year in Quincy, Illinois. There will be more people at that one game than I will have at all my baseball games next season. So you can take your Minor League Baseball and.......

I do not care about anyone's college schedule or Minor League schedule. I do not care about what people do in the summer. If I do not have a clue about umpiring, then I guess I will take your word for it. But I seem to get hired by the same people, go to the best schools that anyone assigns and work some pretty decent ball. So Windy, you can drop any name and say "they are concerned." I will tell you so what. Because my schedule this week will tell you exactly where my heart is and what I want to do. If I become successful in basketball, you can have your Minor League game. Because I will make much more money doing a single D1 Basketball game, then you will in one D1 Baseball game. I have never attended a baseball camp outside of a local camp and I know I probably never will. I am not trying to impress baseball assignors and dedicate my time to baseball outside of the High School Season.

Say whatever you like. Call me whatever name you wish. Guess what, you just make me laugh. Because I will never understand why anyone would ever care what I say in the first place. I know that I could never, ever come to my local group and say, "You know, Peter on Officiating.com said to do this." Or "WindyCityBlue says to do that." If I said that to a coach or fellow umpires and officials, they would not only have no idea who you guys are, they would not care. So if anyone tries to quote me and my philosophy, and you live in another state, you are dumber than anyone here. I might not be the best guy in the world, but I know my place in life and on this board. The guys that are respected in my state are not respected because of what people on the internet think. They got there by working games and being successful on the field or court. It is obvious that you live for other people's opinion that will never influence you one way or the other. I just will tell you to go F### yourself and move on.

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Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jun 26th, 2004 at 02:19 AM]

Re: Re: Logic, not evident in Wheaton.
 

Peter, you are just lying. For one, I have not posted there in days. They only got rid of the people like you that troll on the board and seemed to be obsessed with my name. The only place I have posted recently is the Football Board. But then again, you believe WCB is a well thought of umpire in our area as well. I know that you would like to believe that, but there are many that could give a damn about college umpires and Minor League umpires. They do not have the respect and admiration that a D1 Football or Basketball Official has in our area. But then again, we can all live in Fantasy land. ;)

Peace

You know guys this is getting real old, real fast. Why don't you take your arguments and disagreements somewhere else and leave the board to constructive things. Or at least agree to disagree.

Try and make Professionalism more than just a part time job.

Thank you.

<b>Rut Posted: "I am a pretty successful dumbass."</b>


'nuf said.

1) I think the original question has been answered.

2) Most of the recent back-and-forth isn't adding to the discussion or advancing the art of officiating.

3) So, I'll close the thread.