As anyone knows who has been watching the thread Advice on chirping, I ejected my first fan after 8 years of umpiring saturday. I thought it to be a good ejection, as did some other umpires and people around baseball told me, and a few here told me not to worry about it, just to keep practicing my ejections - throw more people out.

I just talked to my league president, I am the vice president, and he chewed my butt for throwing the guy out! He said "there is always going to be some complaints about your calls, umpiring is a thankless job." I explained the situation to him, he said I should have not ejected him, just told the coach to take care of him. I quote "I realize you are the new sherriff, with the new badge, and I know you got the power, but this is an instructional league, and we want to set a good example." What kind of example is a parent who is raising hell and disrupting the game?

Apparently, my BU, who is also on the board, decided it was a bad ejection and that he needed to tell on me.

It shouldn't matter if it was a good ejection or not, he should back me no matter what I decide, as I am the head umpire, and a board member.

Next year, obviously, I am not going to umpire for this league if I have a choice.

[Edited by wobster on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 10:16 AM]

"I ejected my first fan"

Umpires do not have the authority to eject fans unless they are on the field of play. Home team managers, and the constabulary have that right, let's keep it that way. G.

<i> Originally posted by Gee </i>

"I ejected my first fan"

<b> Umpires do not have the authority to eject fans </b> unless they are on the field of play. Home team managers, and the constabulary have that right, let's keep it that way. G. </i>

GEE, you are talking semantics. Umpires do Ejecet fans. It goes something like this when you have a Fan who is making it virtually impossible to play the game or is causing a ruckus.

Blue: TIME (takes out the line-up card) and then says: Skip is that your Fan

Skip: Yes he /she is at all of our games

Blue: Either the Fan goes or we stop right here.

Skip: Blue I'll take care of it

Therefore, in essence no matter how you call it, Blue in effect did Eject the Fan. The difference is that we don't specifically tell the Fan to Leave as we would a player, but the bottom line is the Fan is Ejected or we go home for the day.

Therefore, when individuals say Umpires do not eject fans is simply semantics because the bottom line is they either leave (ejected) or we go home.

Pete Booth

Well, you're going from the frying pan into the fire. Unless you are in a stadium with police protection you should never extend beyond the field. Even then, it's not advisable.

Now that's real sound advice, "throw more people out". It's begining to sound like you are taking advice from the horse's a$$ - and it's going to cost you some teeth very soon!

I think that you should listen to this guy. He's absolutley right.

Look, I don't care if the fan is disrupting the game, there are other ways of dealing with it. Get both coaches together, clear the field and let them tell the fans that if this doesn't stop, the game will not continue.

It's not semantics Pete. It's simple English.

In the original post the poster said he ejected the fan. That clearly means that he personally ejected the fan.

In your post the umpire HAD the fan ejected BY the Manager. That clearly means that the Manager ejected the fan, not the umpire.

If you see someone steal a ladies purse and tell the nearby cop who then arrests him, who made the arrest. Certainly it wasn't you although you did HAVE him arrested by a person with the authority. Simple. G.

Yes, I should have had the skipper take care of it, we talked about that in the other post. I should have tossed the coach that was giving me problems, and had the manager toss the fan or get him in line, I know that, now. But ironically enough, I did have police protection, as the other coach was a cop.

And it was His High Holiness who told me to eject more people. I am not going to eject somebody unless it is bad, anyway.

My stance remains, though, that the president should have my back, as he does the other umpires. It was my call. But the biggest problem I had is that he told me I was power hungry because I through out 1 person in 8 years.

Wobster;

Sooner or later, umpires that want to get good, give up on kiddie ball. Some kiddie ball leagues support their umpires, and some do not.

You have run into one that does not. If it makes you feel any better, back in the 1980's, I had the same problems as you, except in my case, the kiddie league fired me. I ejected an 11 year old for hurling his bat and helmet in anger after striking out. I was told that we did not embarass kids by ejecting them because their self esteem was too fragile. (This particular kid came from a broken home. His father had abandoned the family two weeks earlier and then the mean umpire threw him out of a game.) I told them that I would not tolerate such behavior and it was not my concern what the kid's personal problems were. They told me that I was done.

It was the best thing that could have happened. I joined a real umpire group and started moving up the food chain. If you have put in eight years in the trenches, it's time to get out. There are better challenges ahead. Or,find a kiddie league that makes parents and coaches sign behavior contracts AND ENFORCES THEM.

Peter

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wobster
[B]As anyone knows who has been watching the thread Advice on chirping, I ejected my first fan after 8 years of umpiring saturday. </b>

On what authority?

<b>I thought it to be a good ejection, as did some other umpires and people around baseball told me, and a few here told me not to worry about it, just to keep practicing my ejections - throw more people out.</b>

Oh, wonderful advice.

<b>I just talked to my league president, I am the vice president, and he chewed my butt for throwing the guy out! He said "there is always going to be some complaints about your calls, umpiring is a thankless job." </b>

True dat.

<b>I explained the situation to him, he said I should have not ejected him, just told the coach to take care of him.</b>

Wise man.

<b>I quote "I realize you are the new sherriff, with the new badge, and I know you got the power, but this is an instructional league, and we want to set a good example." What kind of example is a parent who is raising hell and disrupting the game?</b>

What kind of example is an umpire overextending his authority? If you followed your presidents advice the situation would have been handled and you wouldn't be in your current predicament.

<B>Apparently, my BU, who is also on the board, decided it was a bad ejection and that he needed to tell on me. It shouldn't matter if it was a good ejection or not, he should back me no matter what I decide, as I am the head umpire, and a board member.</b>

Being a board member shouldn't excuse you from bad calls. The BU should have backed you on the field, but off the field he has an obligation to report that type of behavior.

<b>Next year, obviously, I am not going to umpire for this league if I have a choice.</b>

You might not be umpiring for them and it might not be your choice.

Peter, I am surprised.
 

I have no problem with your advice to move out and up,but what happened to your philosophy of giving the customer what he wants? And what happened to your position on umpire's policing their ranks?


This league doesn't want this behavior. The BU was doing his job.

This type of situation doesn't end at kiddie ball. If the poster takes his same beliefs with him as he goes onward and upward, his problems will go with him. And while he might go onward, he probably won't go upward.

Garth - Can I not make a mistake?

I admitted I was wrong ejecting the fan, and I should have gone to the coach, but I had not recieved any advice prior to that. Since, I have recieved advice and now I know what I should do next time.

Umpires in this league have always ejected fans at least as I remember. I remember parents getting ejected when I was playing. There were at least 3 or 4 a year. I was going on what I remembered, as I haven't seen fans get bad enough in the years I have umpired that they needed to be ejected. In the other leagues around, it is not uncommon for umpires to clear the stands, or throw out 3 and 4 parents at a time. Granted they are not right, but it happens. Fans around this area get a little rowdy.

I have learned from my mistake, but I do not believe I should have recieved a butt chewing. I do not handle the other umpires that way, I let them know what they did and what they should have done.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wobster
Garth - Can I not make a mistake?</b>

Certainly. We all do. But didn't you post this for comment?

<b>I admitted I was wrong ejecting the fan, and I should have gone to the coach, but I had not recieved any advice prior to that. Since, I have recieved advice and now I know what I should do next time.</b>

I thought I read somewhere that you had umpires for 8 years. Is that right? So in 8 years you have never been told your authority is pretty much on your side of the backstop?

<b>Umpires in this league have always ejected fans at least as I remember. I remember parents getting ejected when I was playing. There were at least 3 or 4 a year. I was going on what I remembered, as I haven't seen fans get bad enough in the years I have umpired that they needed to be ejected. In the other leagues around, it is not uncommon for umpires to clear the stands, or throw out 3 and 4 parents at a time. Granted they are not right, but it happens. Fans around this area get a little rowdy.</b>

If your league is being inconsistent with you, then you have a legitimate *****. But only about he consistency, not over their, apparently, current policy of not ejecting fans.

<b>I have learned from my mistake, but I do not believe I should have recieved a butt chewing. I do not handle the other umpires that way, I let them know what they did and what they should have done.

Butt chewings come standard equipment with some mistakes. I've had mine gnawed on pretty well in the past. And they come in various forms and intensities. The umpires that you "let them know what they did and what they should have done." probably consider that a butt chewing.

Get over it.

But if you don't want diverse comments about something, don't post it here.

I have umpired for 8 years, and no, I don't recall being told it was wrong to eject fans, as I have seen it happen in many games around here. I may have been, but I have not made this particular mistake before, so it didn't register.

From what you now say about ejecting the fan, I can better understand your actions. You simply didn't know you couldn't do that.

Your President should have known that and handled the situation, after the fact, a tad more graciously, especially where you are the Vice President.

He could have said: Hey Wobby, I heard about that sitch yesterday when you threw out that fan. I heard he was a real low life and deserved to be thrown out.

I know it is not in the rules but WE are not allowed to eject fans unless they are on the field so WE have to be carefull.

Next time it happens Wobby, go to the home team manager and tell him if this fan is not brought under control this game will be forfeited to the other team. That should take care of the problem. Good job, see ya Wob.

Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

GarthB;

My critics have often deliberately misinterpreted my advice of "Give the customer what he wants!" To wit:

I have never advocated letting the coaches or players misbehave. Just because they want to scream at the umpire is no reason to let them.

Here is what I do mean by giving the customer what he wants:

If BOTH coaches show up at the plate conference and want to play by certain rules, as long as it does not compromise safety, I am going along with their desires. I simply am not going to enforce rules that neither of them want enforced unless it has to do with safety. Over the years, here are some examples:

1. Don't call balks. Fine, I can live with that. Or give warnings only. (I have not had to do this in 10 years since I no longer work at these levels.)

2. We want to play only five innings but we'll give you a full fee. The Virginia High School League (VHSL) has forbidden this practice. They hate it. However, if the coaches show up at the plate conference and my assignor has approved it, they are going to get what they want. When the VHSL pays my fee is when I'll start listening to the VHSL.

3. All manner of modifications to FED rules (excluding safety). Usually these revolve around balks, visits, the DH, and appeals.

4. Free substitutions.

5. Imposing slaughter rules and time limits (as long as I am the beneficiary in terms of time.)

My critics hate my attitude towards letting the coaches write the rules. Therefore, they deliberately lie and imply that I let the coaches compromise safety or compromise behavior. That does not happen where I umpire. I have just such an example that I am working on for the paid part of this site. Stay tuned.

I did not understand the 2nd paragraph of your post with regards to the BU.

To put your third paragraph in context, Wobster told us that he had never thrown someone out of a game. I told him that he needed to learn this skill pronto. He made a mistake in his choice of target. Big deal, who cares. He is learning. Anyway, he had success because everyone shut up. He learned something there about the power of ejection. That's a success story in umpiring education.

Finally, from what he describes, no one is policing anything in the league that he works. When 15 year old 1st base coaches are yelling at umpires, something is wrong with the league administration. It's time to leave.

Peter

Re: Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

No, your critics just think it is the dumbest thing they have ever heard. For one if you understand anything about business, it is not our job to answer any questions and to have them walk away happy. That is not our job. Our job is to run the game. Call the game by the rules. Use common sense. And if we can not interfere in the game. That is the reason the "give the customer what he wants" does not apply to umpiring or any officiating for that matter.

Peace

Always listening to the customer can be dangerous in business. I read once that one of the top customer requests for Porsche was more trunk space. So if Porsche listened to the customer they'd make station wagons.

Apparently Porche did listen cuz they are producing an SUV which has plenty of trunk space. Dumbest thing I have ever seen. Either you want a sports car or an SUV... they are not interchangeable. That is kinda like having an umpire named Peter Rutledge. HA :D

You are correct, I simply didn't know I couldn't do it.

I meant to make that clear in the first post, but I didn't. Oops.

Re: Re: Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

It is generally a waste of time to argue with Rut so I am replying for the rest of you. The first problem in replying to Rut is interpreting his mangled grammar. Tell me, what does this sentence mean:

Rut wrote "And if we can not interfere in the game." He wrote it as a complete sentence. It makes no sense at all. What's new?

Unfortunately, we must take into account the customer's wishes or he will go somewhere else. My association has driven the other associations in our area out of business. In spite of the fact that we charge MORE than anyone else, the customer chooses us because we take care of the customer. It does you no good to be the best umpire in the world if no one will hire you.

It is a truism of business everywhere. The man who pays the bills makes the rules. Unless you want to live in a communist country, you will have to get use to it. Only sports officials are arrogant enough to believe that marketplace rules don't apply to them. Recognizing this fact, we have put our competition out of business and made more money for ourselves in the process.

Thank God our competition thinks like Rut.

Peter

Re: Re: Re: Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

Then why are you responding using my words? If you were not responding to me, then you would not use my words at all to defend your silly argument. :rolleyes:


Who cares what one association does over another. The issue is whether it is in the best interest of the game and the umpires on a game to treat the coaches like customers. Last time I checked, that is not my job to make everyone happy.

I see, this is about your ability to compete with other associations. So all this crap is an attempt to maintain some silly place with a conference or school. I agree that they have some say in what goes on, but there are standards that should be maintained. If the people that paid the bills to carry a gun around on the field, does not mean I think that is a good idea because the customer says so.



I thank Jesus that most people do not think like you. It does not surprise me that folks like yourself are more concerned with maintaining something than holding some professional standards. There is nothing wrong with letting the coaches decide some things about games they participate, but I would think that your state has some standards that need to be upheld. I know we would have problems if we allowed coaches to make up rules as the go along, just because they wanted to. But then again, I am not you.

Peace

Re: Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

Peter:

You read WAY too much into post. I was referring to his league not wanting him to toss spectators. That's all.



[Edited by GarthB on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 06:43 PM]

I guess I am somewhat lucky.The park in which I call is very suportive of our crews.
Last year,during a post-season all-star tournament,I was
involved in a situation where the father of a player from our park decided to start screaming at my partner and myself.I mean SCREAMING,not just raising his voice.
I approached the home team manager,and asked him to see if
he could calm his parent down.His attempts failed,at which point I calmly told the coach that either the gentlman vacated the area immediately,or I would call the game a forfeit.After a few more profanities,the man removed himself from the area,and moved to the roadside behind centerfield.
I was told by our Chief Umpire,and two Board members that I had handled the situation well,and acheived the desired result.Also,our park has no problem calling our local police
department to remove any unruly fans,or coaches.

P.S.
I had the same home team the next day,and the coach assured me I would have no problems out of this parent.It seems that after the game in which he was removed,his wife blasted him in front of the team and all their parents about his "rediculous behavior",and told him he would not ever embarass her that way again!!

lessons learned
 

wobster, you have learned a valuable lesson from this experience. Good - move on. FWIW - I learned this lesson in almost the exact same way as you.

Those that castigate HHH for his attitude about calling what the coaches want, let me offer this...I am a young official who's dream is to call a NCAA Div 1 conference ball game. I am being evaluated for movement into the upper levels of our association, including AAA American Legion. If all goes well I should have a crack at Ju-Co ball within the next year. I have been told by our NCAA, NAIA, and Ju-Co umpires "your mechanics and rules knowledge are great. You need to work on your philosophy and understanding the game." This comment is ALWAYS followed by, "you have to learn to call what the coaches want." For instance, allow the neighborhood tag at second (a la Papa C) and the jump turn pick-off move, call FED rules at a legion game - but NEVER, EVER compromise safety.

Jumpmaster,
I can assure you that you do not call what the coaches want at the major college conference level (D1). We do not pick which rules we will enforce, since many of us are evaluated at most every game. My crew chief has worked two Super Regionals and drives home the need to enforce everything by the book.

If you want to move up, there are things you can do...

1) Hustle - including getting back to your position between
innnings. This is the number one thing that get beefed.

2) Look professional - get the best gear you can afford and
maintain it. You'll be safer, too.

3) Learn from your mistakes and don't make them again.

4) Know the rules differences between NCAA and FED or OBR.
Nothing PO's a coach more than calling the wrong rule
(well, maybe not hustling).

5) Recognize that you need to adjust your game to the level
of play. They are better - faster, trickier, stronger.
You need to create better angles and see more.

6) Never take a coach for granted. They usually got their
jobs by knowing somenthing or someone. You need coaches
on your side for recommendations, but if you are a brown
nose you'll likely only have one or two in your corner
because the others have found out and are PO'd.

7) Work as many games as you can at that level. I know that it is a Catch 22, but you won't get better games until you've proven yourself. I was working crappy JUCO ball when I got out of the Minors. A MAJOR coach was scouting a kid and approached me after the game. He asked me if I was interested in working his non-conference games and I agreed, even though I knew they would be crap. It paid off - a couple more coaches took notice and now I get conference schedules and a whole lot of travelling.

Be fair - enforce all of the rules - but realize that these guys don't live in a rule book, like many of us. They don't like being shown up and hate looking bad. Huh, that sounds a lot like us.

Ditch this league and go fishing. It ain't worth the hassle.

[Edited by DG on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 10:57 PM]

Windy City Blue is exactly correct for NCAA D1 baseball. In the last 5 years or so, the NCAA has taken its cue from MLB and seized control of umpiring. Just like MLB is grading umpires on the strike zone and other things, NCAA is grading the umpires on compliance with the rules. Coaches and ADs no longer have much input.

At the lower levels, the coaches and ADs rule the roost, or at least have a lot more influence. At the D1 level, a conference office hires the entire conference umpire staff. At lower levels (DII down to high school), individual schools and school districts hire the umpires. Therefore, at the lower levels, the coaches and ADs have a lot more say. He who writes the checks, writes the rules.

This effect increases as one gets into summer leagues. The League Administrators are often connected to the teams in some way. It does not pay to pi$$ off the coaches when the issue has nothing to do with safety or decorum. The lower the level, the more likely it is that the coach is connected to the League President. That is why LL may be the toughest level to politically navigate.

Peter

Speak for your area alone.
 

Maybe in your little small area that is true, but not true in my area or a lot of other places. The schools pay the umpires, but they do not decide who works the games or not. They might have imput if they like a guy, but I know many assignment chairmen that make sure those reasons are legitimate, not just *****ing because they lost a game. So that philosophy might be all the rage in your neck of the woods, but does not apply at all where I live

Peace

Re: Speak for your area alone.
 

So the schools pay the umpires but have little influence over who works the games. HMMMM.

I think that it's great that you have been able to repeal the law of the marketplace. Perhaps you should share your ideas with former communists who would like to reestablish command economies. I'll bet that they would pay you big bucks to tell them how to repeal the laws of the marketplace. They have been trying for 80 years and it ended in catastrophe. But the great Rut can be their salvation, yet.

You are such a genius, Rut. Your talents are wasted in the Chicago area. You are ready for the World stage.

Re: Re: Speak for your area alone.
 

This is why I and many do not respect you. You do not know how to see things at all thru other people's experiences. Just because something is one way in your little small area, does not mean the rest of the world is dealing with the same issues.

Yes, the schools write the checks for the umpires, it is their event. They write the checks for the playoffs, but have <b>absolutely no say whatsoever about any of the assignments the IHSA hands out</b>. A Regional or Sectional host cannot tell the playoff assignor, "I do not like this guy, he cannot work this playoff game." During the regular season the schools pay, but they do not assign the games or decide who goes where in many cases. There are parts of the state that have assignment given by schools, but what I am talking about does not apply to them. I am being very specific to the Chicago area or those schools that have an assignor hired by the conference. As a matter of fact, I have known assignors to send an umpire right back to schools where the coach complained about that very umpire. Now, will some assignors cave to what the coaches and schools want? Of course they <b>can</b> but do they actually do that? That is not an automatic or a given just because a school has a problem with a particular umpire. And it really does not happen on that level in baseball, mainly because there are not the numbers to be picky about who goes where. Maybe in some other sports where they really have a lot of guys they can move around without disrupting coverage of games, but not in baseball. If a school bans too many umpires, they will not have anyone at all that is capable to work. Especially at the varsity levels. I even know a basketball assignor that has said to his conference, "If you do not like the officials I send, then hire someone else. But do not tell me that any coach knows officiating better than me." Guess what Peter, he is still working at that conference. Go figure. :rolleyes:

Peter, you just show how "ignit" you really are. Because you think that everyone is in jeapordy of losing something because the school complains or has a problem. If we use your logic, then we might as well cave into the schools complaits about calls that deal with safety, because they do not agree with your call. It is not like coaches are very knowledgable about the rules and how they should be applied. But since they are the customer, let us just listen to them instead of what the rulebook says or the intepreters want a situation to be handled. Well maybe for a guy that has no "backbone" and allows the schools to dictate everything, that might be a legitimite problem. But here, that is not an issue where I am. I guess we all have our own crosses to bear.

Peace

Summer League is the worst
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness

Quote:

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue Jumpmaster, I can assure you that you do not call what the coaches want at the major college conference level (D1). We do not pick which rules we will enforce, since many of us are evaluated at most every game. My crew chief has worked two Super Regionals and drives home the need to enforce everything by the book.

Summer league is horrible about all of this kind of stuff.

High School at least in the south is completely under the guidance of the State HSAA.

They make all determination about rules that might be changed, modified etc., and they also are in charge of all testing and assignments.

In our local association, we have an assignor who is directly responsible to the state office.

He has complete control over who umpires which game. Each coach gets a sctratch list of three umpires and they TRY to go with it.

Playoffs are completely assigned by the local assignor, but the state makes the determination over which local association gets to do the games.


Summer leagues, who knows. Even in all of the select ball which is getting bigger and bigger, every time I go to a tournament, they have their own little rules they want to go by.

Hey, its their tournament, I'll call it however they want.

Thanks
David

Not exactly...
 

I apologize if I confused any of you, but I was strictly speaking about College baseball. I was replying directly to Jumpmaster's query and not reading more into it.

Peter,
I will be more eloquent and diplomatic than what you've recently seen.
As I'm sure you know, I live in the suburbs of Chicago. I have a wealth of knowldge about the game, from LL to the few D1's we have nearby. I have to travel a lot for good baseball! Even though it was not part of Jumpmaster's question, High school baseball in our area is regulated by a handful of assignors. Most of the schools are divided into conferences and those are usually assigned by those men. Most assignors are very accountable to the coachs, AD's and Boards of Control. The individual umpire here usually does not get his games through a coach (during regular season). Post season assignments are handled directly through the IHSA office. That said, if the umpire excels or stinks up the place, the assignor hears about it.

Local colleges, mostly JUCO, do have more of a say in who will or won't work their games. The UMPS assignors issue evaluation cards and ask for constant feedback. A few guys have been removed because a coach has an issue that could not be resolved. Lest anyone be fooled, the college coaches in Chicago have tremendous influence over their officials. A few programs schedule tournaments and request certain officials. Others are adamant about having certain guys NOT work their games. However, we reserve the right to ignore the request. (You can't have six teams all requesting the same guy for every game.)

My original post addressed a way to better yourself. Recognizing that coachs are not "customers" but V.I.P's is part of my philosophy. Treat them with the same respect they extend. There is a reason why some of us move up and do it it without kissing a**.

Re: Not exactly...
 

WCB;

We agree 100%. The DC area is exactly like Chicago. Coaches have a lot of influence but assignors have the ultimate say. Assignor's are influenced by coaches and ADs. My particular assignor is heavily influenced by ADs.

Why am I not surprised that you know what's going on and that other umpire from Chicago is clueless.

Peter

Re: Re: Not exactly...
 

He said the exact same thing I said. He just worded it a little differently, but we said the exact same thing. And I work 3 sports, not just one. I think I am very familiar with how I get games and what gets guys banned or recommended. Assignors only listen to coaches to a point. They do not allow coaches (especially the strong ones) to just dictate who goes where, especally if the beef is not valid. And unless there is some tape or major rule violation, they are just not scratching umpires. And the assignor of one of my association has made it clear that he will send an umpire right back to the same place where their was a problem if he sees fit.

You are so right Peter, I have just lived here for a number of years and work multiple sports, work with multiple assignors in all those sports, but I have no idea how the assigning works or how officials are scratched. I will make sure to give out your email to area umpires for advice on how to deal with the coaches and assignors that live here. Remember, you know. ;)

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

Peter:

I think this is the perfect subject for you and Mr. Rutledge to write "point/counterpoint" articles for officiating.com. I would almost be willing to pay to read them.

It would certainly be more entertaining than the standard fare appearing there today.

an update
 

Apparently, even though I handled it wrong, my ejection had the desired effect and then some. I worked another game tonight for the team who I had a problem with, and they were VERY polite. I didn't have more than 1 or 2 comments the whole game from that side of the fence. Also, the fan I tossed and his buddy came up to me before the game and apologized and said it would never happen again, and that he was out of line.

The Manager for that team also told me that I should have thrown his son out (the 15 year old first base coach) because the manager has been trying to instill a healthy respect for umpires into him. Oh well.

I handled this situation wrong, but I did learn something (a lot, actually) and I got the desired result. All's well that ends well.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Peter, I am surprised.
 

Actually, the article I would like to see is how and when to eject a player, fan coach(where's the line), and when to ignore the chirping.

A lot of younger umpires like myself could benefit a lot from that.

Re: Re: Re: Not exactly...
 

Rut;

"A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY"??????????????????????

How about a lot differently? You were not even close. Furthermore, WCB used standard English. You should try it sometime. Maybe then, readers would understand you.

Peter

ESL possibility
 

Like Garth, I would pay to see that point/counterpoint. If only to use it as a primer for "English as a Second Language" classes.

Wobster may have a point, but it would be very difficult to instruct officials on when to eject contestants - note: not fans. Each of us has a trigger point and depending on the level of play and how bad you may have kicked the call, you will have to adjust. It seems apparent that many of our LL brethren have zero tolerance policies. If your league will back you, this is a good administrative tool. However, at High School Playoff level and above, you have to expect arguments and confrontations. How they AND YOU, behave will have a tremendous bearing on the result. I've seen umpires cause ejections and I've learned a lot from umpires that allowed let things get too out of hand. Find your comfort level.

Since I'm married and have children, I learned a long time ago that I may be right, but I may not be able to convince those around me. Pick your battles and remember that the video camera is always watching.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Jun 24th, 2004 at 09:30 AM]

Listen Baldy!!!
 

Peter,

Why don't you use standard logic?

The word "customer" is a business term. It has nothing to do with our job as umpires or officials. You are the only fool I have ever heard try to tell anyone to treat coaches that way(D1, State Final Officials, Assignors, Clinicians, Speakers). We are not on the field to serve the coaches. We are there to serve the game. So if we treat the coaches or school (who do not assign us btw) like customers, then we have to go out of our way to make them happy. That makes absolutely no sense. Maybe if your bald headed, old *** would stop trying to be a kiss a$$, you might just understand that.

I do not come here to make sure every word is in place. Actually most of the time I do not fully read what I post when I send it. Why, because I really do not care. This is a discussion board, not a academic review. Because if it was, there would be many here that would never be able to post here. Get some hair, then I will worry about what you and everyone understands. Mark a$$!!! (old slang)

Peace

Rut,

How can you respond the way you do and sign off with "Peace"??

For the 100th time, "Peace" is short for "Peace out!!" This is not the 60s anymore. It is not about "Love not War," slogans.

And if you do not like the way I respond, DO NOT READ MY POSTS AT ALL!!!!! Because if you do or if you do not respond, we will still all be in the same exact place we were before this day ever started.

Peace ;)

such hostility......

just kidding

Lighten up, Francis...
 

The "Peace" close doesn't bother me.

The fact that you believe that you and I said the same thing in our posts amazes all of us. No, we did not just say it differently. We are diametrically opposed in our philosophies. Maybe we can convince Peter that the word customer is a stretch, but his intent is obvious. The official is supplying a service to an end user. In many parts of the country, the end user IS the coach. Many small schools hire their officials directly. This responsibility is handled by an AD or the coach. They can and do care about what they are paying for. Some may not have much of a choice due to a limited official supply. But, they will object to poor service. Yes, our responsibility is ultimately to honor the game - not the players, as you alluded to in another post.

In Chaicago and many metropolitan areas, the assisgnor take a lot of heat for supplying bad officials. As the adage goes, sh*t rolls down hill. The umpire will hear about it and may be removed. While some assignors may support and official and put him back on a contest when the coach has asked otherwise, he won't keep doing that if the coach keeps complaining. Don't be a fool. There are simply too many options and assignors are replaced regularly or the association might lose the league/school/conference.

You may not answer directly to the coach - from your responses here, it seems obvious that you don't care about image. However, if an umpire p*sses off the wrong coach, I guarantee that he will hear about it. When the coach escalates the issue past an assignor to a Board of Directors or tells his AD to get involved, heads will roll.

Officials are considered independent contractors in many states. They provide a service for a fee. If you take the base of this description, the customer pays for a product. They demand value for their money and complain like any other consumer when it falls short.

Re: Lighten up, Francis...
 

WCB;

You said exactly what I was trying to convey. Now let's watch that other umpire from Chicago butcher it.

Unfortunately, I don't think that the point/counterpoint idea with Rut will fly with the management of this site. The foreign language version of officiating.com is not yet ready for launch.

Peter

"And if you do not like the way I respond, DO NOT READ MY POSTS AT ALL!!!!! Because if you do or if you do not respond, we will still all be in the same exact place we were before this day ever started.

Peace ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

I never said I liked or disliked your posts. I try to learn from everyone here. Given your mutual animosity, I find "Peace" at the end of a response to Peter to be odd...

Re: Lighten up, Francis...
 

Well WCB, I actually started my career in a place where there were no assignors. Of course they cared who they paid for, but they did not have a lot of choices. Most just wanted to fill spaces on a piece of paper. Some of course were picky, other schools were not as much. But in the end, they need to fill spots. The ADs or coaches are not experts on officiating and if they were not careful, there would be officials that could not find an opening to fill. Of course they might do their best to hire the better officials around, but it was never a guarantee.


I never suggested that they never listen to coaches, but you have to sometimes consider the source. Some coaches have a reputation as not being happy with anyone that comes their way. They still need to have umpires. They cannot scratch everyone. And in baseball there really are not a lot of choices. It is not like everyone can get to many places in the Metropolitian area and be at a school at 4:00pm that often. There are many who do not want to umpire HS Baseball for that very reason. I know I am one of the few that are willing to go to Warren and Marengo and I do not live 5 minutes from the field.

That is not true. I just do not sweat what people think on a discussion board. Because I have never had a coach even know or care what I post here. But they do care what calls you screw up on a baseball/football field or basketball court.

Well in baseball, they can let them roll all they want. But since it is obvious that umpires can pick up a full varsity schedule about a week before the Baseball Season starts, I think they do not a lot of leverage. Of course they can complain, but I have been working almost 10 years, and most umpires I work with at the HS level do not have half my experience. Of course you can work with a 20 year vet from time to time, but that is rare.

Look, your boy can call me all the names he likes. But I have never had an assignor or veteran official or umpire ever suggest the crap that Peter is trying to convince us here on this board. There is a Basketball Assignor in our area that openly admitted that the coaches every year vote to fire him. He has been assigning that conference almost 20 years if I am not mistaken. Every year. The ADs took away the coaches voting on this issues according to him.

I just was at a basketball camp tonight. In my last game of the night, one of the coaches was upset at the amount of fouls my partner's and I called. We called something like 28 fouls in the second half alone. We were being observed by D1 Officials, who is well known across the country and has worked a Final Four. The coach went to the head of the clinic and complained about the job we did. He said, "this was the worst experience I have had during a summer league." He went on to complain because of who was observing us, we called more fouls to impress the D1 Official. His comments were completely dismissed and laughed at. They did that because the coach had a very bad reputation for doing nothing but complaining about the officiating, no matter where or when it is. There were a couple of people that actually witnessed the game and agreed that not only should have called as many fouls, but we could have ejected a couple of kids. The game was very chippy and was not a real close game. Not once during my conversations with the Camp Director or the D1 Official did they suggest we care or accomidate this coach or these players. As a matter of fact, there attitude was bascially "screw em." Then they went on further to say, "he does that every time there is a game." In no way did they support this coach or agree with him. They basically wrote him off. I say all that to illustrate that we have many assignors that realize who and what they are dealing with. So it becomes obvious when a coach is just blowing smoke. It is also clear to many that some coaches are younger and they might still have that "Sophomore level" mentality. I have heard many assignor totally dismiss the feelings of coaches that are not considered immature in their complaints.

So if Peter wants to buy into that philosophy, that is his right. But the rest of us do not have to.


Of course they pay, but that does not mean they control everything in the process. If they want to have sports, they are going to pay regardless of who comes to the field.

Peace