Runners on 1st and 2nd, one out. Batter has full count. Last pitch is called a ball by plate ump and catcher appeals to field ump who said the batter did in fact go around. Out #2!! Catcher then throws down to third and catches runner at third off the bag. Is this out #3 or is the ball dead because of the appeal???

Out! Appeal is live ball, unless the appeal was a dead ball appeal by coach (FED ruled game).

Thank you, the USSSA tournament official called it the other way. Runner got to go back to third and cost us the game.

OBR
Out #3. The ball is not dead. This would have been much smoother had the PU come out asking "Did he go?" right away
(especially since it was full count).

It may have been the wrong call, but this one call did not cost you the game. What if the pitcher gets a K on the next batter and makes the call irrelevant? Or what about earlier in the game when you maybe did not score with runner on 3B and no outs? I can think of a few calls that might cost you a game (ie walk off home run that was actually foul), but this one don't qualify.

On this same note...is it a dead ball when the batter is out for slinging the bat? I thought he was just out and the other runners were live, but a dead ball was called as well. This is Ruth/Ripken.

No this is not an immediate dead ball.

Out for slinging the bat? Is this a special rule for Ripken?

SO- you guys are saying that if runner on 2nd base was going to third base because he thought (and was told by PU) there was a base on balls, then the subsequent change of call by BU to a strike leaves the runners vulnerable?

Doesn't seem right. You want all your runners to stay right on the base, waiting to see if there might be some sort of appeal. When do you require them to go --- wouldn't want to be caught off base when that appeal is made!!!

Does this mean throwing the bat because he was mad? Because if that is what you meant, the ball would be dead at the end of playing action, and the offender would be ejected.

I don'k know if it is different where you are from, but most places there is not a long delay in asking the BU if he swung. The pitch is caught, PU says ball, F1 asks did he go. So PU steps back and asks. Come on that takes like 1 or 2 seconds. You see it on TV all the time. There is no way that 2 seconds should cause R2 to be put out.

OBR 9.02

(c) The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing. Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail. Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher's throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire. The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing. On a half swing, if the manager comes out to argue with first or third base umpire and if after being warned he persists in arguing, he can be ejected as he is now arguing over a called ball or strike.

No, I mean at the end of his swing he lets go of the bat slinging it several feet or even to the backstop. I do not see a rule in the book, but I've never seen this rule not enforced.

Bat throwing is often a local rule. It is actually written into the Dixie rules - 1st offense is an out, no leeway.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, that's the problem with local rules. No one really thinks them through and they are rife with ambiguity and sometimes unintentionally conflict with other rules.

How do you call a person out for throwing a bat? The defense did nothing to earn the out. And how far does the bat have to travel before it is considered thrown? 3 feet? What if someone tosses it 2 feet, 10 inches? Assuming that this rule is to prevent dangerous flying objects, do you award a batter first if the catcher throws his mask?

What if the batter takes ball 4 and then tosses his bat to the dugout? Is he out? What happens to runners on base?

What happens if he hits a home run and when dropping the bat it travels "too far?" Is he out? What about the runners? When does the out occur? At the time the bat is thrown, on appeal, or at the end of the play?

Was any of this considered when creating a rule that you can't throw a bat?

In FED this is warn, then eject.

In Dixie, it's normally taken that an out for a thrown bat happens when the batter flings the bat as part of the follow-through after a hit. I can see the reasoning - safety. An airborne bat is much more dangerous than a lot of the other things prohibited in many jurisdictions for safety reasons. 3 Feet is definitely not enough ... and tossing it to the dugout is not either.

Leagues that have bat slinging rules are generally concerned with safety. I had two last night in a Babe Ruth game, same batter both times. RH batter, after hitting the ball, the bat ends up against the backstop, on the right side, which means he finished his follow through and slung it while bringing it back and starting for 1B. I had one a week or so ago, whree a RH batter hit a ball, and released the bat at the top of his backswing and it hit me in the neck.

It did cost us the game
 

We were up by 1 run, it was the bottom of the 7th and they were the home team. The next pitch was a hit in the gap that scored 2.

Re: It did cost us the game
 

So you blame the loss on one call, late in the game, meaning nothing else that happened earlier mattered, or that you could have gotten an out on the very next pitch instead of a hit. Ayayaya...

Is there no protest procedure for rules in this tournament?

[Edited by DG on Jun 12th, 2004 at 01:44 AM]

Re: It did cost us the game
 

I'm assuming you had more than one umpire (since you said he asked for help). You should have protested or made sure both umpires got together on their ruling.

Out of curiosity, why did he put the runner back on third?

Did he think the ball was dead, or did he call time?

Other than that, I would have protested.

Thanks
David

thats why you get somebody to design your local rules besides mom and pops who are there to "improve the program"...get somebody who has been umpiring and seen alot of ball to make up the extra rules then get them voted on...don't let some idiot make up your rules

In DY, is it a dead ball when an out is called?

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I think that's why you get one warning. Because it is not a clear rule and is a judgement call. I've never seen this rule get over-enforced.

I've never seen this rule actually in place. Frankly, it's stupid. Outs should be earned on the field, not given to teams for no good reason. Warn, then eject is a much better way to handle this kind of a situation.

I don't have a problem with that except it would still result in an out then, and everytime that player would be scheduled to appear at the plate in our league.

Well, sounds like you're following a stupid local rule with another. Our local league bats everyone. I ejected a 13-year-old the other night. No penalty -- you just skip over the ejected batter.

Well I guess your league is just "smarter" than ours. I guess when players bat out of turn it is just overlooked, since that would not be an "earned" out.

So I understand you correctly, you are going to eject a 7-year-old for slinging his bat?

I would (it's been a long, long time since I've done a game with players that young -- but I have EJ'd a 13/14 year-old and a HS player in the past 5 or so years).

The "best" rule I've seen on this -- the player that throws the bat isn't out, but the next player in the line-up is. Nothing gets a kid's attention like peer-pressure. When a team and another individual is made to suffer, the offending action is (usually) quickly corrected.

BTW, I had a college wood-bat league game this weekend. A lefty let go of the bat and it hit me (PU) in the thigh, then in the cup. He got warned.

For mcrowder
 

mcrowder wrote: Bat throwing is often a local rule. It is actually written into the Dixie rules - 1st offense is an out, no leeway.

I have a son who umpires Dixie and we had a conversation on this rule recently. He is not aware of any such rule. I went to the Dixie Youth rules and the Dixie rules and could not find such a rule. Could you point it out for me so I can share it with him?

When someone uses profanity on the field, do you eject a random player from the bench? Punishing a player for the mistake of another is a quick way to send the game into chaos.

I saw an interesting solution to habitual bat tossing recently. In a 8-9 year old game where the entire roster bats, a player threw his bat twice. Once after a popup his bat ended up at the mound. The second time he walked, carried his bat halfway to first and then threw it to his dugout on the third base line. Nearly hit the umpire.

The ump went to the coach and told him that the player was to remain on the bench next time his turn came up in the order. No out, just pass him over. Since kids this age love to bat, this made an impact.

I'm not sure I could make such a call and have it stick if the coach protested, but an interesting solution nonetheless.

[Edited by akalsey on Jun 14th, 2004 at 07:49 PM]

I guess we are just smarter. BOOT is specifically in the book -- we don't feel the need to put in local rules because we don't feel like we are smarter than those that wrote the rules.

I would eject the 7-year old, yes. That is theoretical, cause I've never worked a game where 7 year olds play. When would 7-year-olds ever need umpires?

Carelessly throwing a bat is generally a local safety rule intended to punish the offender, which is it's own manner of instruction. It is not there to reward the defense for something they did not earn.

You better hope that the only way you get hit with a thrown bat is when you are the PU. I mean if I'm tha BU and I get hit with a slinged bat, that guy is getting more than a warning.

Well I guess your league is just "smarter" than ours. I guess when players bat out of turn it is just overlooked, since that would not be an "earned" out.

So I understand you correctly, you are going to eject a 7-year-old for slinging his bat? [/B][/QUOTE]

I guess we are just smarter. BOOT is specifically in the book -- we don't feel the need to put in local rules because we don't feel like we are smarter than those that wrote the rules.

I would eject the 7-year old, yes. That is theoretical, cause I've never worked a game where 7 year olds play. When would 7-year-olds ever need umpires? [/B][/QUOTE]

If you are serious about the 7-year-olds needing umpires, then nevermind. You obviously live in a different world than the rest of us.

Well I disagree
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarionTiger


Well I guess your league is just "smarter" than ours. I guess when players bat out of turn it is just overlooked, since that would not be an "earned" out.

So I understand you correctly, you are going to eject a 7-year-old for slinging his bat?
I guess we are just smarter. BOOT is specifically in the book -- we don't feel the need to put in local rules because we don't feel like we are smarter than those that wrote the rules.

I would eject the 7-year old, yes. That is theoretical, cause I've never worked a game where 7 year olds play. When would 7-year-olds ever need umpires?

If you are serious about the 7-year-olds needing umpires, then nevermind. You obviously live in a different world than the rest of us. [QUOTE]

My son plays baseball, he is in the 5-6 year league, next year the 7-8 league.

We have youth umpires, (you might call them that) and they are more harmful than good. Unless they are highly trained (and then they won't do it becuase of the demands of time etc) they do more harm than good.

Let's see in my son's games I saw with regularity:

Foul balls called fair
Fair balls called foul
Batters called out for slinging bats (another kid slings a bat and nothing is called)
Runners safe by three steps called out and vice versa
Force outs called safe because they didn't tag them

And I could go on and on.

So my point is that the coaches could just as easily call the games. The offensive coach pitches since this is coach pitch and he could call one side of the field and the third base coach could call the other side.

As much as parents want this to be "super ball" its not, and to have umpires is really nothing more than a show.

DISCLAIMER: (Now I say this having been an assignor for ten years in a league that this was "serious" ball. We used umpires and they were trained, but IMHO it was a waste of money.
All I got was coaches complaining way too much to a 14-15 year old. So my opinion is to use adults, then we could have a real good knock down drag out fight on the field and really teach the kids what baseball is all about.)

Thanks
David

<i> Originally posted by akalsey </i>

<b> Originally posted by bob jenkins

The "best" rule I've seen on this -- the player that throws the bat isn't out, but the next player in the line-up is. Nothing gets a kid's attention like peer-pressure. When a team and another individual is made to suffer, the offending action is (usually) quickly corrected. </b>

<i> When someone uses profanity on the field, do you eject a random player from the bench? Punishing a player for the mistake of another is a quick way to send the game into chaos. </i>

I agree with Bob, the major cure to many of these things is to make the team suffer. If the team suffers, then the shenanigans will take care of itself.

Look at Football / basketball. Let's say the defense makes a great stop on 4th and short in football, and the ball is ready to be turned over to the offense, but some knucklehead on defense roughs the QB or commits a similar unsportsmanlike act.

Ruling: The player depending upon the act could be EJ'D but the more important point is both the <b> Offensive and Defensive TEAM </b> now suffer because of the actions of ONE player. The offensive does not go on the field, and the defense is penalized 15 yards and an automatic first down to the other team. If this happens you do not have to worry about the coach getting all over this player his teammates will.

In a nutshell, I agree with Bob in that if the TEAM as a whole suffers, many of these issues will go away or the player will not be on the team anymore.

Pete Booth

It would be rediculous to call out the following batter because the preceeding batter slung his bat. If there is to be a rule against bat slinging penalize the offender. Peer pressure... give me a break... and get real.

I agree. The football analogy is a false analogy. If you call the following batter out, you are punishing an innocent individual as well as the team.

If you must call someone out, have it be the person who offended. Does this added out not punish the team?

I still maintain that calling an out for throwing a bat is a dumb rule. The defense did nothing to earn the out.

I think the safety issue of bat tossing can be taken care of in other ways. If you've given them a warning or two and they won't stop, eject them. Or if the league makes players miss the next game if they're ejected, tell the coach that it's time for the player to spend the rest of the game on the bench. If the coach complains tell him that the alternatve is ejection. I'd bet the coach goes along with it.

<B>SO- you guys are saying that if runner on 2nd base was going to third base because he thought (and was told by PU) there was a base on balls, then the subsequent change of call by BU to a strike leaves the runners vulnerable?

Doesn't seem right. You want all your runners to stay right on the base, waiting to see if there might be some sort of appeal. When do you require them to go --- wouldn't want to be caught off base when that appeal is made!!!</B>





6.08
The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when_ (a) Four "balls" have been called by the umpire; A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance