Definition of Fielder's Choice

[ericpeeg]

Hi -

This is an argument with my wife, so I'd like someone to tell me how right I am...

Here's the scenario -

My daughter (delightful child) is at bat. Runner on first, two outs. Daughter grounds to shortstop, who flips it to Second Base for third out. My wife argues that my daughter's at-bat should be scored a Fielder's Choice, since she reached first base safely (wasn't thrown out at first). I say it's an out, and that daughter is 0 for 1 in that at-bat.

Of course, I'm looking for validation, but I need some official resource as proof! I've found definitions of a Fielder's Choice, but it doesn't seem directly speak to the scenario above - maybe because I haven't found a rule which gives the precedence of causing the out (grounding to short) over the act of reaching first base safely (fielder's choice).

Any learned opinon would be appreicated!

[andrewm]

IMO, you're both right. It is a fielder's choice. But, like any other fielder's choice, you still don't get credit for a hit or getting on base (for on base percentage). So, fielder's choice, 0 for 1.

[ericpeeg]

Andrewm -

Here's where I expose my ignorance, I guess. In the classic Fielder's Choice scenario - no outs, runner on first, batter hits to short where out is made at second, less than two outs - I guess I'd thought that the at-bat didn't count - that it was excluded from both the hits and at-bats column. That if a kid got two hits, a fly-out and a FC, that she was 2 for 3 for the game. Am I wrong here?

[andrewm]

Originally posted by ericpeeg
That if a kid got two hits, a fly-out and a FC, that she was 2 for 3 for the game. Am I wrong here?

Let me preface my comments by saying that I'm not an official scorekeeper. Just a fan and a LL coach.

Yes. Stats should read 2 for 4. I think you may be confusing a sacrifice with a fielder's choice. With a sacrifice, the batter is "giving himself up" for the team, therefore, no "at bat". Also, you only have a SAC bunt or SAC fly, not a SAC grounder. A fielder's choice is just that. The fielder CHOSE not to get you out. He had a better offer, so to speak, and got the lead runner. Had there been no one on base, you would have been out.

[mcrowder]

Yes - Fielder's Choice is an at-bat, and it's obviously not a hit. So a player who has 2 hits, a flyout, and an FC had 4 at bats, and 2 hits. 2 for 4.

[greymule]

Maybe the definition of fielder's choice has changed over the years. To me, your daughter simply grounded into a force play. I remember (1950s) when scorers used to differentiate between grounding into a force play and hitting into a fielder's choice (e.g., Abel on 3B, Baker grounds to F5, who throws home to get Abel instead of playing on Baker).

Don't have my book handy, but as I remember, the definition was hard to understand.

Of course, either way, it's 0 for 1.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

2-14-1

A fielder's choice is the act of a fielder with a live ball, who elects to throw for an attempted putout or to retire unassisted any runner or batter-runner, thus permitting the advance of another runner(s). Scorers use the term in the following ways:
a. to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases when the fielder who handles his batted ball plays on a preceding runner;
b. to indicate the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is trying to put out another runner; and
c. to indicate the advance of a runner due to the defensive team's refusal to play on him (an undefended steal).

Fed also says
9-2-2
A base hit is creidited to a batter when he advances to first base safely: ...
c. because of a fielder's choice when a fielder attempts to put out another runner but is unsusccessful and the scorer believes the batter-runner would have reached first base even with perfect fielding.

So, although you are asking two questions: what is a fielder's choice? and what is a hit? I think these rules answer your situation... per federation rules. I assume a score keeper for an OBR game would use the same criteria.

[mcrowder]

Yes, it's a forceplay ... but you don't (and never did) just write forceplay in the scorebook. You write the out under the kid that got out (note - this is not an at bat, just an out)... something like 3-6. You right FC for the batter, drawing them to first base. FC is an at bat, and is not a hit when computing your average or OBP.

[greymule]

but you don't (and never did) just write forceplay in the scorebook.

In the most common scorebooks of the 1950s (I still have them), if Baker hit a ground ball and F6 threw to F4 to force Abel at 2B, the instructive example was to write "6-4f" in Baker's box. You put a circled 1 or 2 or 3 (depending on which out it was) in Baker's box, usually close to 2B on the little diamond. For that play, you did not write FC anywhere.

It may or may not be the custom now, but in looking through the old books, "fielder's choice" was used to explain a BR reaching first without getting a hit, on a play that didn't produce an out or an error. Example: "Richardson safe on a fielder's choice as Kasko tried for the force at second but Boyer just beat the throw." No error, no hit, no out. BR reached on a fielder's choice.

Nowhere is a simple force play described as a fielder's choice.

I suspect that the term "fielder's choice" is commonly applied erroneously.

"Grounded into a force play" denotes an out. "Hit into a fielder's choice" does not necessarily mean the defense got an out.

The OBR book is little help. Apparently the term "fielder's choice" has several meanings.

In fact, the term "force play" is obviously a choice since the batter isn't the one out. It's more accurate because it's more specific—it signifies an out, where "fielder's choice" does not.



[Edited by greymule on Jun 10th, 2004 at 12:59 AM]

[TriggerMN]

If the "fielder chose" to throw out your daughter at first base instead of throwing to second base, would you give the runner from first a stolen base because she reached second?

[DG]

Originally posted by ericpeeg
Hi -

This is an argument with my wife, so I'd like someone to tell me how right I am...

Here's the scenario -

My daughter (delightful child) is at bat. Runner on first, two outs. Daughter grounds to shortstop, who flips it to Second Base for third out. My wife argues that my daughter's at-bat should be scored a Fielder's Choice, since she reached first base safely (wasn't thrown out at first). I say it's an out, and that daughter is 0 for 1 in that at-bat.

Of course, I'm looking for validation, but I need some official resource as proof! I've found definitions of a Fielder's Choice, but it doesn't seem directly speak to the scenario above - maybe because I haven't found a rule which gives the precedence of causing the out (grounding to short) over the act of reaching first base safely (fielder's choice).

Any learned opinon would be appreicated!

Fielder's choice is anytime a fielder chooses to make a play on another runner instead of making a play on BR at 1B, whether or not the play on the other runner was succesful or not, if in the opinion of the scorer the play at 1B would have been an out. Count 1 at bat, no hit, and no base for on base percentage. Your example is a classic FC. Another example: runner on 2B, BR hits a one hopper to SS and it is fielded cleanly. It would be an easy play for SS to throw BR out at 1B but instead he chooses to make a play on runner at 2B advancing to 3B. He throws wild into the dugout. Runner on 2B is awarded home, BR is awarded 2B, BR's at bat is ruled FC, and award of 2B on the error.

[greymule]

Your example is a classic FC.

I agree entirely. My point is simply that "force play" implies "fielder's choice" and is more specific, just as "he hit a double" is more specific than "he got a hit."

All force plays are fielder's choices, just as all doubles are hits, but not the other way around.