Hello all.

Question: Can the Special Base Running Rule be applied to Rookie league Machine Pitch? I don't see how it can since the opening sentance starts like, "When a pitcher is in contact with the pitchers plate..." That never happens in any MP games I've even seen.

I think this Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken rule only applies to age groups that have pitchers. I think that the rule book does not even mention machine pitch in this rule because Cal Ripken rules have already eliminated stealing. Seems obvious to me.

My local league allows stealing after the pitch crosses the plate, however, tonight they tried to enforce this rule. Page 11 of Babe Ruth rulebook. It's a long rule...can repost with it if you would like to review.

How in the world can you enforce this rule when the pitcher rarely has control of the ball AND there is no pitching rubber?

Could any of you authoritatively support or contend with me on this local ruling? Anyone have an idea where I can get a ruling that will have some weight to take back to this group?

Thanks in advance,

Frustrated in Marion

Can you post this rule. I am unfamilar with it.

CAL RIPKEN BASEBALL DIVISION SPECIAL BASE RUNNING RULE

Rule: When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher's plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter.

The violation by one runner shall affect all other runners.


a) When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter does not hit the ball, the runner is permitted to continue. If a play is made on the runner and the runner is out, the out stands. If said runner reaches safely the base to which he is advancing, that runner must be returned to the base occupied before the pitch was made, and no out results.
b) When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter hits the ball, the base runner or runners are permitted to continue. If a play is made and the runner or runners are put out, the out or outs will stand. If not put out, the runner or runners must return to the original base or bases or to the unoccupied base nearest the one left. In no event shall the batter advance beyond first base on a single or error, second base on a double or third base on a triple. The umpire-in-chief shall determine the base value of the hit ball.
c) When any base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter bunts or hits a ball within the infield, no run shall be allowed to score. If three runners were on the bases and the batter reaches first base safely, each runner shall advance to the base beyond the one they occupied at the start of the play except the runner who occupied third base, which runner shall be removed from the base without a run being scored.
NOTE: See exception following this rule.


NOTE: When there is a base running violation, the umpire should signal such infraction by dropping a flag to the ground.
EXCEPTION: If at the conclusion of the play there is an open base paragraphs (a) and (b) will apply.

In a pitching machine league, the pitching machine should be treated as the pitcher, since it is. Therefore, runners should maintain contact with their base until the pitch reaches the plate. However, IMO, runners should not be allowed to steal in machine pitch ball. Most machine pitch ball is on a time limit and stealing just takes away from hitting and fielding, which are much more important skills to learn.

I agree that in essence it is the pitcher, but when does it "have possesion of the ball." How can it hold a runner?

I can take or leave the stealing, but if you take the pitcher out of the game, how can you allow any kind of leading off?

How about this scenario:

My best hitter is up. He hits to the outfield most every time. I have a runner on first. Before the umpire puts the ball in the machine, I have my runner run to second and then on to third. As long as my batter gets the ball out of the infield the runner at third stays or at worst goes back to second. If the batter misses, the runner has to go back to first. If the batter gets an infield single, then I just hold my runner at third.

I'm on a small field, there are no triples. This takes the double play away. This makes no sense to me. I cannot see why anyone would apply this rule to machine pitch that allows stealing.

In Cal Ripken, if a runner leaves base early he can advance only one base further than the batter does. So if the batter gets a single then runner would have to be at 2B when play is over. After seeing you do this as a planned strategy I would have to tell you to stop doing that.

What the Hell difference does it make? It is obvious at this level that you don't understand why you are out there either. I guarantee you ,that YOU are more worried about this than any of the kids on your team are.

You should be happy if they learn to field , hit, and run the bases at this level. Teach them the fundamentals of the game and how to enjoy it. Leave the technical bullcrap for later levels of baseball. I can't see why I have to pay exhuberent prices for gas, but I do.

Jicecone...you're right. Kids at this level couldn't care less if they win or lose, and they should not be worried about any silly rules that make no sense. When they ask me why little johnny for the other team can leave the base early and we can't. I'll tell them just to be happy they live in a free country and to go enjoy a coke and some nachos.

Seriously, J, that particular piece of my posts on this subject was to illustrate how needless this rule is. I would not try to do this. We did, however, have a game last night where a kid was literally going halfway to third before the ball was even put in the machine. He was a poor baserunner, and this could have given him an advantage avoiding the force out.

My point, and main question is, this rule should not apply to machine pitch, because Cal Ripken rules already state there is no stealing in machine pitch. My league decided to allow stealing, but still tries to enforce this rule, which I think is crazy.

[Edited by MarionTiger on Jun 8th, 2004 at 09:07 AM]

Doesn't someone have to feed the machine? Treat that person as the pitcher for purposes of this rule.

No, I am sure you will tell them to get an attorney and sue the League, so that they and their parents won't be devastated over such a travesty to the game and their well being. Then after they collect, they can sit back, play computer baseball over the internet, and enjoy all the coke and nachos they can eat. The American Way??????????????

Bob, yes, the umpire feeds the machine. There is no pitching rubber, however. If Cal Ripken rules wanted the umpire to be considered the pitcher in this rule, then why don't they say so? I think they don't because they've already stated that there is no stealing in machine pitch. If there is no stealing, then the kid would not be taking off for the next base before the pitch anyway, would he? Or, is the intention of this rule that you can get a huge lead (since there is no pitcher to keep them in check) and take the risk that you will limit your progress on a extra base hit? If that is the case, then why? Why would you add such a rule? Simply to make things more confusing? Shouldn't they just not be able to leave the base until the ball crosses the plate and that's it? At least until they are playing kid pitch, where this is all a different story?

Also, unless the league has already stated so in their exceptions, then this rule should be interpreted as is, right? As is, the pitcher never has the ball on the rubber.

Jicecone, you've got me all wrong. I'm actually the coach that the parents fuss at for not arguing with the ump more. I'm actually the coach that comes back to the umpire AFTER the game with the rule book and show them what I'm talking about. That's the whole problem here. These guys know I'm usually right because I show them. I do not want to lose credibility on this because they are misinterpreting this rule in this situation. I, unlike many in this league, have a very good relationship with our umpires. I respect them, and I'm pretty sure they respect me. They know it's never personal, and I expect the same from them. We're always friends after the game. I tell my players and parents that it's the errors, bad throws and poor base running that loses games not "bad calls". Now if it is a close game and my kids are playing their hearts out and non-judgement call is made in error...I'm gonna call time and we're going to talk about it.

And you have me all wrong also.

I've been there , done that. It is just not as important as developing a love for the game. Making sure that little Johnny wants to come back and play again next season and does'nt lose interest at 10.

I never kept a book or score at that level because it JUST WAS NOT IMPORTANT WHO WON. IT JUST DIDN"T MATTER!

Don't be ashamed of it, you are who you are.

It Does matter to you.

Good Luck

Jicecone, fair enough.

Yes, it does matter to me if we win or lose. But it matters a great deal more if we tried hard and showed good sportsmanship.

Losing a game and dealing with adversity in sports is its best lesson to me. Just like sports, life isn't always fair. The point is to make it as fair as possible, but it just isn't fair. Take your lumps and move on. Tomorrow is a new day. You can't learn that if you never win or lose. How do you teach humility when you win, and pride in your efforts if you lose if you don't experience an outcome.

Not keeping score enforces that nothing matters, and that's just not reality.

Thanks for responding to my original post (seriously), and good luck to you too.

When I am umpiring, your team gets one warning for leaving early, and then they start getting outs. We used to have coaches like you that took advantage of the rules, but we had to implement this rule to take care of it. This type of coaching, if you want to call it that, would get you a reprimand by myself (I am on the board) and the league president. You would not be coaching next year. You are obviously teaching the kids that bending the rules and winning is more important than sportsmanship. You stated yourself that you send the kids early, knowingly BREAKING THE RULES.

Of course, that is just around here, in Indiana, where we try to teach the fundamentals of the game, not how to run up the score and see how much we can push the rules.

Wobster said " When I am umpiring, your team gets one warning for leaving early, and then they start getting outs. We used to have coaches like you that took advantage of the rules, but we had to implement this rule to take care of it. This type of coaching, if you want to call it that, would get you a reprimand by myself (I am on the board) and the league president. You would not be coaching next year. You are obviously teaching the kids that bending the rules and winning is more important than sportsmanship. You stated yourself that you send the kids early, knowingly BREAKING THE RULES.

Of course, that is just around here, in Indiana, where we try to teach the fundamentals of the game, not how to run up the score and see how much we can push the rules."

Well, I certainly am glad I'm not in your league then, because you obviously don't use all of the facts before you start making your decisions. If you had read ALL of my posts, you would see that I am against this practice and was giving an example for illustration.

Secondly, had you read the rule, you would see that the runner indeed CAN leave the base early, but just has to suffer the possible consequences, which is not necessarily an out at all.

I am also a board member and have officiated for years myself. I also know you do not speak for the whole state of Indiana, and I'm sure they are glad of that.

I guess most folks skim my posts, assume I'm a coach going for the win at all costs and start ragging on me. I will not try to gain any advantage by abusing the absurdity this rule. In fact, I'm really trying to show how this rule does not apply to Machine Pitch, so nobody will try to do so. It happened last night, but I'm pretty sure (at least hope) it was inadvertant.

So can we go back to my original question? Does this rule make sense? Should it be applied to Machine Pitch?


[Edited by MarionTiger on Jun 8th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

There are a number of problems with stealing as it relates to machine pitch or coach pitch. For example, when the catcher returns the ball, for the sake of moving the game along it is often returned to the adult who is pitching or running the machine. If that coach misses the ball, can the runners go? If hte machine (or coach) malfunctions and the pitch is wild, do the runners get to steal?

Unless the defensive players have some control over the ball at all times and have the opportunity to put out the runner who is attempting to steal, stealing probably shouldn't be allowed.

If the kids are playing machine pitch, they are likely at the level where they are playing baseball for the purpose of learning the game. I don't like the idea of stealing at that level in a player's development. The catchers can't catch well, they can't throw far enough, accurate enough, and fast enough to have a shot at getting an out, and hte second baseman probaby can't catch a short hop.

Are they learning anything by stealing? If stealing second is so easy it's almost automatic, why not just award second to any player who gets to first?

Players will learn more about the game from having to stay at first and learn about force outs, tagging up, and smart baserunning than they will from getting to second every time because the catcher can't throw the ball that far.

MarionTiger - I thought your post stating the sitch was something you said you did. I apologize.

Our machine league is no lead off/stealing until the ball is hit. I have never heard of a machine league allowing stealing, since most of the kids that age have a hard enough time getting the ball to the pitcher.

Here is how ours works:

Umpire pitches, and ball remains dead until ball is hit. After a hit, the runners may run until the kid playing pitcher has the ball in the infield grass and calls time. This is about the equivalent of a pitcher being on the rubber, for our purposes. Ball is dead until a batter hits the ball.

I do agree with you that the rule for Cal Ripken is absurd. If there is no real penalty imposed, I.E. an out, coaches could teach this way, which is exactly what I thought you were doing.

akalsey, I tend to agree with you. I think pitching machine and stealing to not mix to begin with. Why our state has decided to make exception to that rule baffles me. Kids might learn more about sliding, tagging, etc., but with a "timeout" being called every time the lead runner is stopped and an "implied" play ball everytime the ball is pitched, it is very difficult for a runner to determine when the ball is live. I personally think there should be no stealing.

Wobster..no problem.

I like your rule better. I'm hoping to have a pow wow with the head official tonight.

I agree that Cal Ripken rules on baserunning are a bit too vague. But it does clearly state in the "Suggested" Rules for Rookie League (7 & 8 year old machine pitch) that stealing is not allowed.

Of course, when it says "Suggested," local leagues tend to make up all their own rules. About three years ago, the local leagues had all played by the rules in the book all year long. Then, come tournament time, a rules sheet got passed around to all the coaches by the state commissioner that said that stealing was allowed. This pissed off all the coaches, because this now meant they had to put a good player at catcher (where during the regular season they can pretty much "hide" a bad player).

The instance that is not specifically addressed in the rule book that keeps everyone here in a perpetual argument: When does the runner have to stay on the base?

This is what they have come up with in my league: They draw a big circle around the pitching machine, and there is a player playing the position of pitcher, although the umpire is feeding the machine. When the "pitcher" has possession of the ball inside the circle, the ball is immediately dead. If a runner is less than halfway to the next base, he has to return. If he is more than halfway to the next base, he is allowed to advance.

I don't like it, but it's at least a way to keep rabid, rules-ignorant parents from literally jumping out on the field. And it keeps from having a runner score on literally every hit because coaches simply tell their fielders to throw the ball to the pitcher and not try to get the runner out.

Of course, the main problem is that they let baseball at this level be competitive, and that they actually pick All-Star teams for tournament competition. I don't think there should be all-star teams until the kids are actually pitching.

Babe Ruth League needs to revamp their entire rule book and print some VERY specific rules about Rookie League instead of the ambiguous stuff they put in there now.

BigWes- that is a good idea with the circle. I will bring that up at our next board meeting. We have a few teams that make up their own rules of when the ball is dead - I.E. inside the baselines instead of inside the grass as the rules state.

[Edited by wobster on Jun 14th, 2004 at 03:27 PM]

BigWes, I don't like the pitcher in the circle either. I mean, what is that really teaching these kids? We've played in a lot of tournaments where that is the case. Then we've played in tournaments where there is no circle around the pitcher, but teams that are used to it, throw it to the pitcher anyway. Of course, the runners continue to advance.

I think I understand what you are saying about not allowing All-Stars at Rookie age, but that is the only place where kids that are putting out a lot of effort can play with similar kids. My league team was not much more than baby-sitting this year. Several of them told me from day one that they did not want to play baseball this year. My all-star team members, however, are so happy to be together because they all want to play hard with other kids doing the same. It is really like two seasons.

Perhaps Babe Ruth is vague on their rules because, as they mention, this is supposed to be developmental baseball for the betterment of the young athletes. That is true, but without solid rules, just what are they developing? There is more to baseball at 7 and 8 than just hitting, fielding and throwing. At least there is for many.

I think you need a circle, and you need a rule that says you have to stop the advance of the lead runner. Then get the ball inside the circle and any runners, who are not the lead runner, who have not made it to halfway the next base must go back. If the lead runner has stopped, and you get the ball in the circle then runners who have not made it halfway go back. If you don't have to stop the lead runner then the defensive strategy becomes "get the ball in the circle" which is not teaching the kids the game.