Tell me if I'm wrong

[JRSooner]

My son played in a State Regional Playoff game last night. Our pitcher jammed this RH batter on his hands and the ball bounded toward 3B in foul territory. The ball hit the edge of the grass off the basepath and started bounding back towards fair territory. Then F5 who was standing with both feet in FOUL territory was trying to get it before it went back into fair territory, and it hit his foot which BTW, as I said was in FOUL territory, and it took almost a 45 degree angle hop towards F6. Now, not being the coach I'm not privy to the explanation of the umpires but, I saw it hit his foot, our local sportswriter saw it hit his foot, our coach saw it hit his foot, and there was no way any part of his body was in fair territory at the time, and I find it hard to believe that anyone including the umpires could have thought it didn't hit him after seeing the unnatural bounce the ball took after it hit him. Now am I mistaken? I thought if a ball touched ANY player while in foul territory it was a foul ball. I can't stand the excuse I didn't see it, I mean there's 4 umpires out there and the balls going at one angle, and then goes at a 45 degree angle I mean get a clue! I'm sure it's not that they don't know the rule that it's foul if it touches someone in foul territory, I mean this is HS playoff baseball!

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally posted by JRSooner
My son played in a State Regional Playoff game last night. Our pitcher jammed this RH batter on his hands and the ball bounded toward 3B in foul territory. The ball hit the edge of the grass off the basepath and started bounding back towards fair territory. Then F5 who was standing with both feet in FOUL territory was trying to get it before it went back into fair territory, and it hit his foot which BTW, as I said was in FOUL territory, and it took almost a 45 degree angle hop towards F6. Now, not being the coach I'm not privy to the explanation of the umpires but, I saw it hit his foot, our local sportswriter saw it hit his foot, our coach saw it hit his foot, and there was no way any part of his body was in fair territory at the time, and I find it hard to believe that anyone including the umpires could have thought it didn't hit him after seeing the unnatural bounce the ball took after it hit him. Now am I mistaken? I thought if a ball touched ANY player while in foul territory it was a foul ball. I can't stand the excuse I didn't see it, I mean there's 4 umpires out there and the balls going at one angle, and then goes at a 45 degree angle I mean get a clue! I'm sure it's not that they don't know the rule that it's foul if it touches someone in foul territory, I mean this is HS playoff baseball!

JR,

You say the ball hit the batter's hands. If the batter made an attempt at the pitch, I have a strike, dead ball and if it's the third strike the batter is out. Any runners on base would be returned to the last base they occupied at the time of the pitch. Sounds like a HTBT call.

Michael

[Edited by MichaelVA2000 on May 27th, 2004 at 03:24 PM]

[LMan]

You dont say if the BR swung at it. If he didnt and the ball actually struck his hands, its dead ball and he goes to first. If he swung at it, its a strike.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by JRSooner
Now am I mistaken? I thought if a ball touched ANY player while in foul territory it was a foul ball. I can't stand the excuse I didn't see it, I mean there's 4 umpires out there and the balls going at one angle, and then goes at a 45 degree angle I mean get a clue! I'm sure it's not that they don't know the rule that it's foul if it touches someone in foul territory, I mean this is HS playoff baseball!

You got it wrong. It dosen't matter where the player is when he touched it, the ball is judged on where it is when it is touched. He could have his one foot touching foul territory, and his kicking foot, could be over on the fair side of the line when it hits the ball.

Ohh and I think when he says "jammed on the hands" he mean that the batter hit the ball on the bat, but on the thin part close to his hands.

[jicecone]

So now that we established who was right or wrong here, can we get an apology for our clueless officials?

[LMan]

well, Ive reread this post 5 times and still am having trouble determining exactly what occurred. If the ball FIRST struck F5 in the foot AND his foot was clearly in foul territory, its a foul ball.

...but then, I thought it said the pitch struck BR on the hands, too....

[Kaliix]

The ball, being the subject of the sentence, was what was being referred to as being in foul territory.

He states earlier that the player's foot was in foul territory when hit ("and it hit his foot which BTW, as I said was in FOUL territory,").

I think your right about the ball just being inside on the handle of the bat, usually referred to as running it in on the hands (not meant as hands literally).

In that case, if the ball and the player are in foul territory and it hits the player it is a foul ball.

If the Umpire saw the ball hit the fielder in foul territory and somehow ruled that a fair ball, he kicked the call. That is one that shouldn't have been missed.

Originally posted by LDUB

You got it wrong. It dosen't matter where the player is when he touched it, the ball is judged on where it is when it is touched. He could have his one foot touching foul territory, and his kicking foot, could be over on the fair side of the line when it hits the ball.

Ohh and I think when he says "jammed on the hands" he mean that the batter hit the ball on the bat, but on the thin part close to his hands.

[mcrowder]

The ball is 3-dimensional. So's the foot. If, when the ball is touched, ANY PART of the ball is in fair territory, the ball is fair, regardless of where the offending foot is.

Say the toe of the foot is right up against the foul line, not crossing it, but the ball is ON the foul line, and hits the toe. Fair ball.

[WindyCityBlue]

LMan - it said in on his hands, not hit his hands. This term has been in baseball since the beginning.

That said, everyone agrees that it's where the ball is...not the player. It is a "Fair line" not a "Foul line". The original post alluded to four sets of professional eyes on teh play - lets assume at least two umps had a good look at it. If four MLB umpires can't tell if Kenny Lofton caught the ball in the NLCS lasy year, then how can we blame a high school umpire in " a State Regional". We call what we see.

I would love to be able to call the close ones from the stands. My bookie won't allow it when I've got money riding on it, though.

[JRSooner]

Yeah, I just meant he hit the ball off of the handle of the bat. Sorry, I was just a little upset. By mentioning the 4 umps, I just meant with 4 out there it's more likely that one would be in position to see it. When it actually happened, I didn't get too mad, I was more in disbelief than anything. I mean you would have to have seen it to do it any justice. The balls going a little to the right, and then it's going WAY to the right! So either one of the Angels from Angels in the Outfield was there to hit it or it hit his foot. I know it is a hard job but when your sons team is facing elimination you want these types of calls.

[mcrowder]

So where, JRS, exactly was the ball (THE BALL, not the foot), when the ball supposedly touched the foot? That is the crux of the issue.

[JRSooner]

His foot was far enough away from the foul line that there was no way it could have been on the line, IMHO.

[LDUB]

I would have to assume the right call was made on this. You said the ball was kicked when it was foul. But you can't really tell unless you are standing right on the line. With 4 umpires, you got 2 guys right on the 3rd base line. I would have to go with the view of 2 umpires right on the line, against the view of a guy sitting up in the stands.

[mcrowder]

JRS - that's a little vague. Was the foot on dirt or grass (or both). Was it parallel or perpendicular to the foul line.

I'm trying to see the playin my head, but can't without the detail.

[JRSooner]

The foot was parallel to the line and just barely on the dirt best as I remember. I just know I and everyone else thought it was clearly foul but as LDUB says I didn't have a good a look down the line as the ump did. I do know one thing, if the ump would've called it the other way the first time, the other teams coaches wouldn't have argued it, because it was clearly hit by a foot or something into fair territory, and I'd bet money on that.