What do you think of this?

WindyCityBlue · #1 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 02:22pm

Here is the insane High School play of the day...

Bases loaded...no outs...the batter hits a Texas leaguer into short right field. The right fielder comes charging in, the first and second basemen busting out...they converge and the ball falls to the ground. The right fielder scoops it up and fires a strike to the catcher in front of the dish. He tags the runner from third prior to him reaching the plate.

You with me so far? As the ball was in the air, the pitcher, WATCHING THE BALL NOT WHERE HE WAS GOING, heads to first to cover the unoccupied base. Only, he sideswipes the B/R before he gets there and knocks him down. Obstruction is called, and since the ball was being held by the catcher, Â“TimeÂ” was called. The B/R was awarded second base on the obstruction, pushing home TWO RUNS. ThatÂ’s correct, the out at the plate was nullified and the runners on second and third were scored because of the award.

The defensive head coach goes nuts and winds up getting tossed during the explanation. The next batter is in his on deck circle and starts laughing. The catcher walks over to him and they get into it. The catcher gets dumped when he pushes the on deck batter down.
Calm is restored and the game goes eleven innings before the team that benefited from the obstruction wins on a passed ball.

What do you think of the rulings?

LMan · #2 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 02:32pm

"...if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction."

sounds good to me.

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 03:58pm

"...if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction."

What code is this, Fed? Is this also the OBR rule?

And the OBS came before the out at home?

[Edited by greymule on May 19th, 2004 at 05:22 PM]

DownTownTonyBrown · #4 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 05:37pm

Looks to be OBR 7.06(a)
7.06
When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
(a) If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batter runner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, if there had been no obstruction. The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction. (Which, would be 1st) Any preceding runners, forced to advance by the award of bases as the penalty for obstruction, shall advance without liability to be put out.

So my question would be "What made you think the BR would reach 2nd?" If the catcher is holding the ball why would you think another runner would make it to home safely if the F1 and the BR had not collided?

Sounds like the right fielder, F9, made and incredible play. Sounds like the BR probably was watching the flight of the ball also and probably was a contributor to the collision. He likely only would have went to 2nd had the throw to home gotten away from the catcher allowing R2 to score also.

I wasn't there but I think you may have "over" awarded.

DG · #5 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 07:41pm

In OBR no play is being made on the BR, so obstruction is called by not penalty. In FED the BR gets 1B, even though no play is being made on him. Runners advance, run scores, no out at the plate. I don't see the BR going to 2B at all and 2 runs scoring. If he had not made it to 1B yet, and the catcher has the ball, how can we develop an opinion that he would have made it 2B? I don't see "any possibility" the BR makes it to 2B on this play, and the defense has already been punished by removing an out an other team getting a run on the ruling. I'm not going to give the offense 2 runs. Can't see it.

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 08:28pm

Hold on here. Bases loaded, no outs. BR bunts up the 1B line. F3 charges and and fields the ball, then throws home for the force out. F2 then throws to F4 covering 1B in an attempt to get BR, but F3 obstucts BR before he gets to 1B.

We cancel the out at home and score the run? I don't believe it.

DG · #7 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 09:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Hold on here. Bases loaded, no outs. BR bunts up the 1B line. F3 charges and and fields the ball, then throws home for the force out. F2 then throws to F4 covering 1B in an attempt to get BR, but F3 obstucts BR before he gets to 1B.

We cancel the out at home and score the run? I don't believe it.

Again, are we talking FED or OBR? In previous example there was no play being made on runner going to 1B (ie throw from RF to home), so in OBR the obstruction is called but no penalty. In FED he is awarded 1B and all runners are forced, which removes the out.

Two differences in your example. One, the throw is from 1B not RF, and the possibility of a play on the BR is very real, unlike earlier situation. So in this case, in FED or OBR the BR has been obstructed and there was a play on him so he is awarded 1B and all runners advance with no outs.

Believe.

LMan · #8 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 09:20pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Hold on here. Bases loaded, no outs. BR bunts up the 1B line. F3 charges and and fields the ball, then throws home for the force out. F2 then throws to F4 covering 1B in an attempt to get BR, but F3 obstucts BR before he gets to 1B.

We cancel the out at home and score the run? I don't believe it.

7.06 says 'or if BR is going to first', it makes no mention about whether there's a play on him or not. I read that as he gets 1st, and runners advance one base w/o liability, 1 run scores, and the force out at the plate is removed.

DG · #9 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 09:34pm

7.06 says 'or if BR is going to first', it makes no mention about whether there's a play on him or not. I read that as he gets 1st, and runners advance one base w/o liability, 1 run scores, and the force out at the plate is removed. [/B][/QUOTE]

You might want to read 7.06 again. 7.06(a) starts out with "if a play is being made on the obstructed runner". 7.06(b) starts out with "if no play is being made on the obstructed runner"

greymule · #10 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 11:05pm

OBR:

I believe there is a misinterpretation of 7.06 here. If the defense gets an out before the BR is obstructed on his way to 1B, I believe the out stands, BR gets 1B, and the other runners are placed where they belong. The out at home is not nullified.

Abel on 1B. Baker hits a one-hopper to F6, who steps on 2B to force Abel. Baker is then obstructed on his way to 1B. No way Abel is then ruled safe at 2B. If the OBS occurs before Abel is put out, that is a different story.

I cannot find anything in PBUC or J/R to justify nullifying an out already made.

Fed:

All I have is a 2002 book. Where does anyone see that OBS can nullify an out made before the OBS?

[Edited by greymule on May 20th, 2004 at 12:23 AM]

jxt127 · #11 (**permalink**) Wed May 19, 2004, 11:37pm

Memory serves me that the basis of the obstruction penalty is to remove the effects of the obstruction. Direct (type 'A') the affected runner cannot be put out between the bases where it occurred and gets the forward base. Type 'B' just award bases to cancel the effects of the OBS - simplistically put. But I can't imagine taking away the effects of plays made before the OBS or even outs made after indirect OBS when unaffected runners are put out.

In fact even if BR is obstructed before 1b he/she does not automatically get the base when the BR would have been out regardless - specifically on a caught fly ball.

bob jenkins · #12 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 07:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by DG

You might want to read 7.06 again. 7.06(a) starts out with "if a play is being made on the obstructed runner".

And it continues with "OR if the batter-runner is obstructed before he touches first base.."

So, in OBR, it's type A, the ball is dead, BR is awarded at least first (farther if the umpires so judge), other runners are awarded the base they would have reached (again umpire judgment). If the umpires in the play at hand judge that's second for BR, then the other runners will be "forced" to advance and the runs will count.

Under FED, all obstruction is a delayed dead ball. Outs on unobstructed runners stand. The rest of the award is as above.

greymule · #13 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 09:03am

Then in OBR (and Fed), how would we rule this play?:

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker grounds to F3, who throws to F6 to force Abel at 2B. F1, running to cover 1B, then gets tangled up with BR in the baseline before 1B.

Is Abel's out at 2B actually nullified by OBS that occurs afterward? Hard to believe, and I can't find any case play to support that.

Apparently the ruling on the play that started this thread was incorrect. The out at home should have stood.

J/R gives a play that might be instructive here, but only by inference. I'll post it tonight after I get home from work.

WindyCityBlue · #14 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 09:22am

Guys,
This was a High School game. The OBR has no bearing.
The ball dropped uncaught in righht field. The batter runner would ahve made it to first no problem. He was clocked two steps from the bag.

I'm looking for a Fed interp.

greymule · #15 (**permalink**) Thu May 20, 2004, 09:50am

I'm looking for a Fed interp.

Bob Jenkins gave us a Fed interp:

Under FED, all obstruction is a delayed dead ball. Outs on unobstructed runners stand. The rest of the award is . . .

BR is awarded at least first (farther if the umpires so judge), other runners are awarded the base they would have reached (again umpire judgment). If the umpires in the play at hand judge that's second for BR, then the other runners will be "forced" to advance and the runs will count.

Since the runner out at home was unobstructed, his out should stand. Runners not put out would score if forced home by the award to the BR.