Babe Ruth 13-15 yr olds. Runner on 2nd. F1 spins on pivot foot towards 2B as R2 breaks towards 3B. R2 stops 1/2 way to 3B and Pitcher, without disengaging from the rubber, and pumps his arm with the ball three or 4 times trying to get R2 to commit in one direction.

I know that F1 does not have to throw the ball to 2B. Does that give him the right to stand on the rubber and feint a throw?

I was an observer at this game so no call on my part. I think it was a balk when F1 did not disengage and still as, a pitcher, was deceiving R2 by pumping his arm. Neither the PU or BU called it.

What's the call?

I’ve got nothing also.

The pitcher’s back is to the plate, he gained distance and direction towards 2nd, he is facing the runner. Sounds like he is not trying to deceive the runner to me.

Under the above circumstances, the pitcher is allowed to feint a throw to 2nd. The book doesn’t actually say he can only feint once.

I I I T B T S B.

It is <U>a balk</U> if a pitcher steps (ie, steps and throws, or steps and feints a throw, or steps only) to an unoccupied base <font color = red>unless a runner is advancing toward and trying to acquire such base</font>.

What was the free foot doing? Still planted or was direction and distance being applied?

mick

Since he turned towards <b>second</b> and feinted, which was the last legally occupied base of the runner at the time, why does this matter?

[Edited by GarthB on May 22nd, 2004 at 02:38 PM]

Feint, no step ---> balk.

Mick, Papa C has given you a hint. please decipher.
"I I I T B T S B" , "I I I T B T S B", I I I T B T S B".

Aaaaargh !
 

[/B][/QUOTE]


Carl and Garth,
I see said the blind carpenter as he picked up his hammer and saw.
He stepped when he spun. I was thinkin' it coulda been a right-hander upper body turn/twist/feint thingy.
Couldn't see that from U.P. here. ;)
Thanks,
mick

<HR>

Yes, jicecone, it is impossible.... :)

I think it depends on if the foot left the rubber or not. In Dixie Boys, it would be a balk if the pitcher, from the stretch, was set, and then spun around with foot still planted on rubber and only faked a throw. If he stepped off the rubber, he could do the macarena and it wouldn't be a balk.

Coach: Not to put too fine a point on it: You're just wrong.

On which point?
Are you saying the pitcher doesn't have to remove the foot from the rubber?

I don't speak for Carl, but, yep, I'm betting that's what he's saying.

In another thread someone said Dixie plays by OBR. Can you find anything there that supports your position?

Is it only when faking to 2b? If a right handed pitcher faked to 3b without removing foot from pitching plate, it would be called a balk every time...

Not to be redundant, but coach please give us the reference that says the F1 must be off the rubber to fake to second?

And if he could spin and keep his foot on the rubber, he'd probably need therapy for a dislocated hip.

Thanks
David

Why?

<i>OBR 8.05...if there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(b)The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;</i>

I don't have my rulebook in front of me, and Dixie's website is very limited. I'm just going by my own experiences. I've never seen a balk to second either, it's just hypothetical.
They have been calling balk like crazy this season, and I guess I'm just confused on the issue. My understanding is that the pitcher must pitch from the stretch when there are baserunners, and once he is set, he must pitch or throw to a base, unless he steps off the rubber, in which case he can fake a throw... Now if this is wrong, I'm even more confused....

I don't know where you get that from?

Rule 8.05 is listed to the relevant portion below. The relevant portion is A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.


OBR 8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_ (a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play. (b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw; (c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base; Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps....

"A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps...."
????
Uh, ok... So he steps but doesn't have to throw, but he has to throw because he steps.... ????

I give up.....

If, as reported, Dixie uses OBR, then this is wrong. If they've made up their own pitching regulations you could be right. But if they've tinkered with the rules that much, they should stop advertising that they use OBR.

Assuming the pitcher stepped towards the base, it should NOT be called a balk, ANY TIME.

Did you miss the reference to first base only?

It isn't really that hard, coach.

Go to MLB.com and look for their section on the rules.

They have them all online.

Dixie used them with the few exceptions that are listed in the Dixie rule book.

With runners on, the F1 may pitch from the windup or the stretch.

If he chooses to pitch from the stretch, as mentioned above, he can throw to any base (must step toward the base first) or feint to second or third.

If he steps to throw to first and is in contact with the rubber, then he must "throw the ball."

That's not really that hard I don't think.

Thanks
David

You CAN'T be wrong on the second point because the pitcher legally removed his foot from the rubber.

IIITBTSB!

We play Dixie here Garth and its OBR.

Thanks
David

I noticed the reference to 1B. It's just confusing the way it's worded. So, a pitcher can fake to any base except first as long as they step toward the base?

I tinks we almost got im learnded Willie.

Yep.

Now you see what we have to go through when were trying to learn All the balks and rules for each different League.

Good Job

I know you guys must get frustrated with a rookie like myself, but I'm just a volunteer coach trying to learn as much as I can.

I have been told by more than one ump that in Dixie Boys, you MUST pitch from the stretch with baserunners. Which only makes sense, but they are very strict in teaching the boys proper form.
We have a kid on our team who is a great pitcher, but a few years back he was in an auto accident and has pins in his legs and a plate in his hip. It is difficult for him to pitch from what they consider the stretch, and he is constantly getting called on balks...

Will - not sure why you'd say the Dixie website is not helpful - it has a full copy of the rulebook on line (unlike other books).

There is NO rule in the Dixie rulebook that says the pitcher MUST pitch from the set position with runners on base.

Here's the bizarro rule regarding balks (quote this one to your next ump!) in Dixie Baseball.

8.05 - NO PENALTY: Any pitch or any action by the pitcher construed as a balk by the umpire shall be declared a no pitch. The ball is dead and no runner shall advance.

Strangely, it also DOES NOT mention that feinting a throw to 1st base without throwing is a balk. (And with no penalty, who cares if it does, except for the dead ball).

As mentioned many times, Dixie does NOT use OBR, and Dixie rules are a mess.

It has a rules index, but it only hits on major topics. For instance, the only rules concerning the pitcher are about the number of innings one can pitch... Nothing more... (Unless there's some sort of backdoor link not listed)

I'm guessing here, because I don't know squat about Dixie, but I bet the NO PENALTY clause in Dixie rules is for 12 and under age groups. Generally, most leagues have rules that don't have penalties for balks for 12 and unders, since they can't lead off anyway. Exception would probably be PONY baseball, Mustang league, where bases are longer (ie 70 feet for 11-12) and leading off is normal. At age 13, things change. I bet there is a Senior Dixie division that would call balks.

Click on http://www.dixie.org/Uploads/Dixie/N...ment_rules.asp

Or, go to http://www.dixie.org, click on baseball, click on rules and regulations. Right at the top is the link to the full rulebook - labelled 2004 Official Rules and Regulations.

Here is the full text of rule 8.05 regarding Balks. I love the repeated "reserved" throughout the book.

Note that this is not in the age-specific rules, and goes right up to age 18.

8.05—A balk occurs when—
(a) The pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;
(b) Reserved
(c) Reserved
(d) Reserved
(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
(f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while not facing the batter;
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch while not touching the pitcher’s plate;
(h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;
(j) Reserved
(k) The pitcher, while touching the plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;
(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box.
(m) Reserved
NO PENALTY: Any pitch or any action by the pitcher construed as a balk by the umpire shall be declared a no pitch. The ball is dead and no runner shall advance.
NOTE: Any action by the batter or any member of the offensive team, including the coaches, that, in the opinion of the umpire-in-chief, causes a pitcher to commit an illegal pitch or balk shall result in the pitch being declared a no pitch. The ball shall be dead and no runners shall advance.

Well, I'm sorry to hear this. It's a really, really dumb rule. Here's why:

With runners on first and second, the defense decides to walk the batter. The catcher stands up, holding his hand toward his right, and then jumps out of the catcher's box. The pitcher, not paying really close attention, sends the ball over the plate, and the batter hits a three-run homer. Oops, balk, and NO PITCH.

What if the pitcher, while off the rubber, pitches? That's a balk in baseball (I don't know what Dixie is). If the batter gets on base and everybody advances, the fact the pitcher delivered while not in contact with the rubber is ignored.

Not to mention the fact that one of the purposes of Youth Leagues is to prepare players for other venues.

Can't you just imagine the Dixie Youth graduate in his first year of JUCO. He balks, delivers, and watches the ball fly out of the park. "Well, thank God I balked," he'll say -- until the run goes up on the board.

Finally, any rule where the offense argues the defense DID NOT COMMIT AN INFRACTION is an awful rule.

Play: The Dixie Youth pitcher balks, delivers, and the batter homers. Now, the offensive skipper will rush out to the umpire:

"Hey," he will scream. "What's the matter with you? That pitcher didn't balk. You must be blind!"

The defensive skipper will rush out to say: "Oh, yes, he balked. He's been doing off and on all year. I'm sure glad some umpire finally caught him. What a great blue you are!"

Gag me for the pitching rule in Dixie Youth.

Thank God, there are no Leagues like that down here!

Hold on a minute ...
 

<i><b>THIS IS NOT DIXIE YOUTH!!!! Dixie Youth is ages 12 and under.</b></i>

The post above is about DIXIE BOYS!!! Ages 13-18

Dixie Boys baseball is based upon OBR rules.

It has a few minor changes but nothing major.

Dixie Boys pitching rules are listed in the rules book rule 8, but there is nothing about balks. It is all information for the coaches.

Now Dixie Youth has many many changes, but they are all listed on their website and in their rulebooks.

The only specialty rules that Dixie Boys use is malicious contact and obstruction (where they pretty much follow FED)

There are also some differences for 13-14 (still youngsters) and the Dixie Pre-Major and Majors which is 15-16, and 17-18 (kids that shave regularly)

The penalties for balk are same as OBR.

Thanks
David



QUOTE]Originally posted by mcrowder
Click on http://www.dixie.org/Uploads/Dixie/N...ment_rules.asp

Or, go to http://www.dixie.org, click on baseball, click on rules and regulations. Right at the top is the link to the full rulebook - labelled 2004 Official Rules and Regulations.

Here is the full text of rule 8.05 regarding Balks. I love the repeated "reserved" throughout the book.

Note that this is not in the age-specific rules, and goes right up to age 18.

8.05—A balk occurs when—
(a) The pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;
(b) Reserved
(c) Reserved
(d) Reserved
(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
(f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while not facing the batter;
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch while not touching the pitcher’s plate;
(h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;
(j) Reserved
(k) The pitcher, while touching the plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;
(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box.
(m) Reserved
NO PENALTY: Any pitch or any action by the pitcher construed as a balk by the umpire shall be declared a no pitch. The ball is dead and no runner shall advance.
NOTE: Any action by the batter or any member of the offensive team, including the coaches, that, in the opinion of the umpire-in-chief, causes a pitcher to commit an illegal pitch or balk shall result in the pitch being declared a no pitch. The ball shall be dead and no runners shall advance.
[/QUOTE]

Re: Hold on a minute ...
 

David: I'm seriously confused. mcrodwer quotes a series of rules from dixie.org, where there's NO PENALTY for a balk.

Comment 1: You say: "This is not Dixie Youth!"

Comment 2: You say: "The post above is about Dixie Boys!!!"

Comment 3: You say: "The only specialty rules that Dixie Boys use is malicious contact and obstruction (where they pretty much follow FED)."

If you're right, mcrowder 's rules, downloaded from dixie.org don't apply to Dixie Youth or Dixie Boys.

What up, Baby?

I'm confused also
 

I think I confused the issue also.

I was responding to mcrodwer that the rules he posted from the web site were for Dixie Youth which is 12-u. (not up to age 18 as he suggested)

The balk that we were talking about was the comments from the coach Willsun.

He was asking about specifically <b> Dixie Boys </b> in his post...

So I was trying to clear the water and separate the two.

Dixie Youth has no penalty for balks, its a don't do that and start over.

Dixie Boys follows OBR as far as balks.

Now hopefully that is a little more clear.

Thanks
DAvid

Re: I'm confused also
 

Thanks, DAvid. Let me repeat: I'm glad there ain't no Dixie Youth leagues down here!

Re: Re: I'm confused also
 

[/QUOTE]Thanks, DAvid. Let me repeat: I'm glad there ain't no Dixie Youth leagues down here! [/QUOTE]

yeah, our local leagues have gone to Dizzy Dean which is more OBR.

I used to head up our local leagues when they did Dixie Youth. I liked it, but we called balks in our league. It was an illegal pitch but we did not advance the runners.

I only do HS and up now, which is Dixie BOys and Majors, just like OBR with a few safety rules.

Thanks
David

Good discussion guys. I personally have only called a balk to second one time, and that's when a not-so-coordinated pitcher (while attempting to spin) tripped over the rubber, fell off the mound, and dropped the ball. :)

You may not like this, but if the pitcher falls off the mound and THEN drops the ball (as you describe), it ain't a balk. (8.05k)

IIITBTSB!

I should have known to be more specific. Fall was back toward the plate. So balk was called on the fall, not due to the dropped ball. Sorry.

If the pitcher starts his motion to pitch and falls down, <i>that</i> is a balk. (8.05a)

If the pitcher starts to throw to first and falls down, <i>that</i> is balk. (8.05b)

And the rule book citation that permits you to call a balk because the pitcher fell down while turning toward second is ...?

8.05
The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery


Whether he 'intendeded' to throw to 2nd is irrelevent...he failed. If a RHP brings his left leg up and back, then comes toward the plate (falling or otherwise) without delivering the pitch, it is a balk. I guess you had to be there.

Sorry, that excuse won't work. You said he fell down "(while attempting to spin)." That simply cannot be interpretaed as a "motion naturally associated with his pitch."

Sir, pitchers have been falling down on the mound for years. If it happens while he is trying to do anything other than pitch or throw to first, it ain't a balk.

Runners on the corners. The pitcher tries the 3-1 move, but when he steps toward third, he trips and falls off the mound. Sure, R1 is gonna take second on the play. But you're not gonna balk in R3, are you?

Now, there's a FED casebook play where the pitcher, with the bases empty, falls down and doesn't deliver within 20 seconds. The umpire is to award a ball to the batter. (6.1.2a)

But if he does, I hope his clicker stops working in the middle of the championship game. (Where he has the plate, of course, Fronheiser.)

I appreciate your knowledge and experience and have definately learned from our discussion. thx

Sometimes ...
 

I've heard guys say it looked like a balk so it must be a balk.

I say, "just because it looks like a balk does NOT mean its always a balk."

Thanks
David

There are a lot of highly technical balks, that should mostly be ignored, especially below Varsity ball.

I had a game last week (13-14 year olds), where I called two balks. One was on a pitcher who was on the rubber in the windup, when someone in the dugout hollered out for him go in the stretch. so he did, without stepping back to disengage. I would not normally call this, but there were half a dozen voices in the opposing dugout, who knew this to be a balk so I felt obligated to call it. The other was a pitcher who "double-set". With foot on rubber, and looking in at the catcher, he brought his hands together at waist level, stopped for several seconds and then he brought his hands up to his chest and moved his left foot back a foot (right handed pitcher). I balked him, no one said a word, and I had to explain to the coach what he did. Oh well.

There are numerous hand and leg movements that would be called a balk in the show, but should be ignored below Varsity level.