I am pretty sure this is a new question. Let me know what you think as it is most certainly a judgement call.

R3 stealing home, b1 bunts to pitcher, who underhands to the catcher for an easy out at home, but wait, there's more!

As R3 is sliding, he throws his foot up in an obvious attempt to kick F2's mitt, which he does. Ball drops to ground, R3 scores (by my call). Fan's go nuts. They scream and complain at me, I ignore them. Later in the day I ask another GOOD umpire, and he says I made the right call. Tonight I get to field and get reprimanded (sorta) by the League President saying he got close to 15 calls over the weekend, and he was sick of hearing it. You make the call, out or safe?

Hard to say without seeing it.

If he was trying to disloge the ball from the catcher, I would call SAFE.

If the contact appears malicious, and I feel as if he was trying to hurt the catcher by "spiking" him, and just luckily caught his glove instead of his body, then I call him out and eject him.

I'll go with safe though.

This is just my humble opinion, but I would first like to say your league President is a real piece of work. Somebody in his position should not come to you and reprimand you, thats just insane. Even if you made the worst call in the world, that still is wrong, in my opinion. He should handle that with more tact.

In regards to the play mentioned, as you describe it, I would call the runner out. In regards to the NFHS rule book, rule 8-4-2b states that any runner is out when he does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play. I reference back to legal slide, rule 2-32-2, citing an illegal slide as: d) the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg (which is a judgment but I believe there was intent there) and most importantly b) the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is standing

heh. I had my league prez come to the backstop DURING A GAME with a rulebook in his hand to argue that I blew a call 2 innings before.....*eyeroll*

The mitt was about a foot off the ground, and in between his widespread legs. I am sure that R3 was trying for the mitt, because the coach told me after the game that he trained his better 2 or 3 players to slide into the mitt hard or kick it during the slide, to knock the ball loose. He could be BS'ing me, but I have known him for about 10 years, so I doubt it.

Sounds like the league president we had last year *LOL* They must all come from the same group.

OBR is ok with crashing the catcher in any way to dislodge the ball. So under OBR, no penalty. However, NCAA and FED would not allow a base runner to kick at a catcher with intent to dislodge the ball. This is a safety rule and since NCAA and FED take care of it, I would rule likewise for all youth leagues, at all ages. If a coach wants to argue I will say I only have two options, an out or an out and ejection for malicious contact. That will send the coach back to the dugout. I have an OUT, even if the catcher drops the ball.

Now if you rule this way, you don't have the league president on your back, because all the parents are concerned for the safety of their players. The proper way for him to address the situation is to discuss with whomever is booking the umpires (ie there is a chain of command), and then they can come to me to discuss in private. If I get a League President giving me a reprimand when I arrive at the field for another game (ie he has hunted me down, and I have not heard this from my booking agent first) I will be happy to discuss with him, explain rules, etc., and if we can not reach consensus that he is full of sh*t, then he can get dressed to do the game in my place, as far as I am concerned.

If he comes during a game with a rulebook in hand to discuss something that happened 2 innings previous, then there will be a game delay as I explain the rules to him, which may include the fact that judgement calls are not to be questioned, by coaches, managers, or league presidents.

By the way, I have never had a league president bother me before or during a game, but if it ever happens, it's not going to make me a happy camper.

OK, DG, you gave me the proof I needed. I needed a ruling one way or another. We have talked about it a few times, and noone knows the rule.

Thanks again,

Chad

Oh, by the way, the league prez didn't reprimand me for the call, he did so because I didn't explain it to the fans and they called him. I was always told not to argue with an angry mob....

Sorry, your call was wrong. The runner may not slap or kick the glove to dislodge the ball. Mike Fitzpatrick, PBUC, 11/08/01. Only legal contact (sliding or non-malicious body contact) is allowed.

Any chance anyone has a rule number for that and in which rules? If I am going to get this to hold up to the coaches objections, I am going to need it in writing.

Carl, don't be sorry, I know I will make wrong calls, but I needed help to know this rule, which you guys did. Thanks,

Chad

The FED ruling is 8-4-2r. The Fitzpatrick ruling is in Section 277 of the BRD. Mike is the Director of the Professional Baseball Umpire Corp. His rulings are official for the minor leagues. (I assume you use the OBR in your Youth League.)

Plus, you might point out that a little common sense should prevail in this instance. If a runner can kick the ball out of the fielder's glove in an illegal slide (foot higher than the fielder's knee), then he can slap it out of the glove or mitt. What about grabbing the glove to pull it off the fielder's hand. Think of all the close plays that would be "safes" if such behavior was legal; and if the League rules it legal, they're on their way to plenty of rough play.

[Edited by Carl Childress on May 19th, 2004 at 12:17 AM]

Thanks, Carl. You are the Man!

BTW, looking forward to trying the GD on saturday. I purposely signed up for a lower level game that I normally wouldn't do so I can try it. I will report findings.

BTW2, When is your next seminar? I would be very interested in attending. e-mail is [email protected]

I might provide a brief explanation to fans in some situations on simple rulings. Example might be a foul tip, ie it's live. Sometimes there is one guy in the crowd that if you explain to, he will update the rest. This situation would require a discussion with the head coach, although I would have reached a different ruling.

Tell the League President to stick it! Who the hell does he think that he is? If your UIC has a problem with you that's one thing. The League President has no business doing this! And if you let him do this to you, you are just as big a fool!

I am basically our UIC. I do most of the games at the diamond (this year about 30 out of 40). I am relatively new. Our board is set up as this:

President
VP of Majors (10-13) (Me)
VP of Minors (7-9) (Me)
Treasurer
1/4 pint coach
1/2 pint coach
2 Member at large

I play a big part of this league, and didn't think I deserved a reprimand. The President was my baseball coach when I was coming up, so I guess he thinks he still is.

Even in that strange hierarchy, he has no business approaching you in such a manner. However, you guys need an official UIC for the league.

His reasoning for berating you is pretty bad too - I would NEVER explain things to an angry bunch of fans. I will ALWAYS explain things - BETWEEN INNINGS - to a fan that approaches politely at the scorekeeper's table (typically in my area about 15 yards from the fan mob) with a question. But it's not a requirement, and you should not be reprimanded for not interacting with fans. Especially angry fans.

What exactly does the UIC do? Does he get all umpires for the league? Is he the only one to get umpires? I think we need to get my league set up like all the other leagues in the area.

Explaining your call to fans
 

DG -
I'm curious why you would offer any type of explanation to the fans.

I don't think that is good advice to any umpire at any level. Don't converse with spectators. If you do, you are either looking for a pat on the back or a kick in the pants.

Make your ruling and if the coach needs and explanation, provide it and resume play. You can bet that the coach isn't going to stop his duties to explain the play to the fan, why would you?

In my area the UIC (me) is responsible for organizing the umpires, ensuring certifications (if necessary) are in order, scheduling (some areas have separate schedulers), fielding questions, complaints, etc from other board members (in my case, 4 league presidents and 4 player reps (these PR's are the people that players can go to with ANY problem anonymously, whether with a coach, the league, umpires, whatever ... 1 per league), as well as the district director (soon to be me as well)). The UIC is also responsible for training their umpires and holding clinics. I'm sure there are other duties out there that other UIC's do (or some that I do that I may have forgotten about). I also attend the tournaments to rule immediately on any protests or rules problems.

The Umpire In Charge defends the umpires and their calls to all the coaches.

Yes he assigns all the games to the umpires and leads them in training AND when the crap hits the fan, the UIC is the common umpire's champion.

He squashes Little League Presidents.;)

Alright, I will add another duty for myself next year. Hire myself for all games. Done! J/K. I will bring it up to the board and see what they think. I would like to get an impartial party to be the UIC so it isn't somebody's friend so they get all the games (myself included, I am good friends with the 1/2 pint coach so I got most of his games)

Sounds to me like you need another hobby, something easy, like fishing. If you are going to be everything in this league, except the league president, then you need to learn how to squash his crap when he brings it.

Re: Explaining your call to fans
 

Well first of all, I am assuming we are not dealing with a higher level game, since we are discussing the actions of a league president, which implies to me we are discussing some kind of spring/summer ball, ie Babe Ruth, Little League, Dixie Youth, etc. The players are probably young and the parents/fans and many of the coaches (not all) unfamiliar with all the rules. I don't see anything wrong with explaining a few basic rules to the fans, especially between innings and especially if asked in a nice way. I see this as being somewhat a normal person with normal interpersonal skills, not a stone wall that nobody can talk to.

I had a very nice lady ask me between innings last year about a call that happened in another game. I had just called a 3rd strike on a batter who swung at the pitch, but the catcher did not catch it. The catcher threw to first for the out. She asked if on a third strike call like that, and the catcher did not catch, did it have to be a swinging strike? Of course I say no. She says an umpire last week said it had to be swinging strike. I say "he was wrong". Nice conversation, a fan is educated, it cost me 30 seconds, but no game time, the pitcher was warming up.

I like the game, I like the players, I like most of the coaches and most of the fans. I call em like I see em and I don't mind spending a few seconds between innnings with the fans, especially if they want to talk to me in a nice way. I also know when not to talk to fans, not be available, not be anywhere near them. It's a helluva game...

deviation
 

sorry to deviate but this has happened before.

in a texas AABC leauge leauge presidents team playing on my feild half way through the game he decided to start telling me how to call the game(ie: mostly in his favor) after requesting him to return to his dugout he stated " i am the leauge president and you will do as i say or i will fire you and you will never work a game again" to which i told him he could take a walk for unsportsmanslike behavior. the next saturday he came up to me and proceded to try to rip me apart in front of the association. the monday after my UIC(lol) his son called me asked what happend then told me that he couldn't assign me anymore games and the leauge had forfeited my pay for the games i had done.

after this fun event i have one recomandation UIC's should be a person who is part of the leauge but not under the leauges control. my current leauge is a new usssa group converted from AABC. the UIC is basicaly what ever sucker can be conned into it. this has given us a variation in UICs but never the kind of trouble i had in texas.
just wanted to add to everyones horror stories

Re: deviation
 

What do you mean by "the league had forfeited my pay for the games I had done"? Do you mean they would not pay you? If so, good luck getting umpires when the rest of them hear about this. Do you have a small claims court in Texas?