does the pitcher on a hiden ball trick have to be of the rubber or the entire mound?

Depends on which rules are in use.

OBR - not on or astride the rubber
FED - not within approx 5 feet of the rubber
NCAA - not on the mound

In the Ontario rules, he can't be on the mound (within the 18 foot radius of the rubber).

We must realize that it is NOT a balk if the ball is dead, and is about to be put into play.

For the ball to be put into play, the pitcher must assume his position on the rubber with the ball, and the umpire calls "play".

If he doesn't have the ball, then there is no way the ball can be put into play, therefore it is a dead ball, therefore it is not a balk.

However, if the pitcher is on the mound, deceiving the runner by not having the ball, then a balk should be enforced.

Little League - Not within the 18 foot radius.

Do coaches still teach this to players and use this on a frequent basis, geeeez, give it up! JMO

As long as umpires allow them to get away with this, they will!

As a coach six years ago, I had this happen to me in a high school game by an umpire who wore an NCAA cap and was very adamant in telling me of his umpire school experience. He wasn't even listed in the state umpire roster.

What do you mean "allow them to get away with this?"

This is legal, it just depends on what rules you are under what is allowed and what is not.

Peace

Had one of these happen in a Babe Ruth (OBR) district tournament last year. I wasn't umpiring the game, but I was the official scorer and ended up umpiring the championship game between the same two teams later in the week.

Tie game, R3, 2 out, bottom 7th. Defensive coach calls time, goes to the mound, calls in the infield. Pitcher gives the ball to the third baseman, everyone returns to their positions. F1 then straddles the rubber without the ball and with the ball still dead. F5 tags R3, game is apparently headed to extra innings. Umpires confer and award R3 home on a balk. After the game when the umpires got back upstairs, I contended that there should have been no balk called because 1) the ball was not live, 2) for the ball to become live the pitcher had to step on the rubber WITH the ball, and 3) there cannot be a balk on a dead ball. They disagreed.

What do y'all think?

Plate Conference:

"Ok gentlemen we are here for 7 innings and I just want to make something perfectly clear here today before we get started. Hidden Ball tricks will not be tolerated.

Now, lets go over the ground rules."

I guess that fixes the problem, right.

You are right. The ball cannot become live until the pitcher takes the mound WITH THE BALL. And there can't be a balk with a dead ball. Wipe the egg off your face and put the ball back in play.

Why would you not allow hidden ball tricks? If they are done correctly, they are perfectly legal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB
[B]

1. Because the ball is hidden and it is impossible to perform a trick when you can't find the object you are performing the trick with. But that could be the trick????

2.Actually LDUB, that was my point.

Actually, Little League rules duplicate the pro rule, which only prohibits the pitcher from being "on or astride" the pitching plate without the ball.

It fixes something that isn't broken, and only exposes you to bigger problems than any hidden ball trick, whether executed legally or otherwise, will cause you.

I guess they wouldn't listen to me because I was "some 19-year-old kid that didn't know what he was talking about" and they were "seasoned vets." Now that I think about it, I was on the protest committee for that game. If the coach had protested the call, we would have probably overturned it.

Incorrect on LL. The LL rule is the same as OBR - not on or astride the rubber.

I think the real fun
 

would have been that there really was no play, no out, no balk, nothing just a time delay. Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible. LOL

Not only is the coach dumb for trying the HBT, but he can even do it right. I might warn the coach for time delaying tactics. But other than that I would have to laugh at him, and laugh hard.

Guys, I'm just a youth coach in my 2nd year, so bear with me....
The ball never would have been dead, because the pitcher was on the mound with it when the coach called time... Right?

I'm not aware of any rule in Dixie Youth, which is what I coach, that covers this topic. I would think that once time had resumed, it would be legal, as long as the pitcher wasn't touching the rubber....
Coach Will

The ball is dead when the umpire calls time. It is not live again untill he calls play.

Huh? WILSUN, I'm scratching my head!
 

"The ball never would have been dead, because the pitcher was on the mound with it when the coach called time... Right?"

If I read your question correctly, "No". The post clearly states that the coach called time, came out to the mound.

"I would think that once time had resumed, it would be legal,"

Again "No" . . . the point being made is that an umpire, by rule, cannot put the ball back into play without the pitcher HAVING THE BALL and assuming his position on the mound.

As an umpire you cannot give the "Play" signal until the pitcher has legally positioned himself. If the ball is not in the pitcher's possesion then the "play" sign cannot be given and the ball remains dead.

THEREFORE, it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick after a dead ball.

And I don't care what any "Big Dog" veteran umpires may say.

It cannot happen.

Tee

Like I said.... Bear with me....

I've seen umps call time after a runner slides, and once the runner is back on the bag and ready, the ump calls for play to resume, and the pitcher never had received the ball... Should the ump have waited untill the pitcher had the ball and was on the mound?

Hooray for the new guy . . .
 

You just nailed it. Anytime the ball becomes DEAD it cannot be made LIVE without the pitcher having the ball and re-assuming a legal positon on the mound.

Can't happen, never, nada, zero, zilch -- without the ball and legal position. Time remains out!

If you have seen umpires doing otherwise they are not umpires.

BTW, I have seen COLLEGE umpires screw this pooch!

Tee

3apples
 

"Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible."

The most common and effective hidden ball trick goes thusly:

R1 - Less than 2 outs . . .

Batter sacrifices and the play is from an infielder to F4 covering first base.

BR is out and R1 has now become R2.

As soon as F4 catches the ball he acts like he hands it to another player (can be F1 but that is not neccessary could be anyone) . . .

However, just prior to this hand off F4 has placed the ball in his left arm pit and lowers his arm.

F1 DOES NOT GO TO THE MOUND, normally F1 and F2 have a conference in the infield.

F4 casually returns to the base at second where R2 is stationed.

Many times the runner will be dusting off, or looking around and not be in contact with the base.

By having the ball in the arm pit out of sight F4 makes sure that R2 can see not only his open and empty throwing hand but shows (casually) his empty glove.

R2 steps off base for whatever reason . . .

and you know "The Rest of the Story!"

I have seen this work at the college level 5 or 6 times over the decades.

Tee

I've got to train my boys on that one! LOL!
(Not to mention broaden my own understanding of the rules...)

Re: 3apples
 

Well thanks for being treated like a four year old, so here is one right back.

Now that you have explained the HBT (no one is sure why)why don't you re-read the quote you took from me and answer that question mr. Big Yap.

I said "Without the ball in play how can you decieve a runner into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. I just don't see it as possible." Note: WITHOUT THE BALL IN PLAY, that was the crux of my question which failed to sink into your mind. You were just too excited to rip on another person here. Well congrats you made a fool of yourself once again.

Oh I forgot,
 

What a piece of work you are my friend.

I simply gave a hidden ball trick that is used. Nothing more. You took offense, so be it.

I wasn't trying to make any statement about you.

Tee

why
 

Why then is the post titled to me and I'm quoted???

I think you have made your rep plain as can be and when that happens you sometimes say the wrong thing and it gets pointed out for all to look at.

If you did not mean your condesending tone and simply did not seethe words NOT IN PLAY then I accept your appology for the rude behaviour to me and I freely give mine in return. But I don't see that as your style.

3apples
 

Take me as you wish. You have made up your mind and I have no plan to try to change that feeling.

I titled the post to you and used you quote as a jumping off point to simply post a hidden ball trick that is legal and actually has worked.

You obviously were waiting to jump my a$$ and that is your right.

You made it this big . . . I was just trying to be helpful.

I have been critical of Canadian Umpires in the past and especially Baseball Quebec, that is something I am working on . . .

Trust me, I respect you more than to treat you as a 4 year old.

Tee

I would have said I respect 4-year olds more.

Totally don't see what set him off.

PS - here's your Dixie rule ... same as that above:

5.11 — After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes position on the pitcher’s plate with a new ball or the same ball in said pitcher’s possession and the plate umpire calls “Play.” The plate umpire shall call “Play” as soon as the pitcher takes position on the plate with possession of the ball.

well then
 

I guess your rep preceeded you and I jumped the gun so we all will now be friends and hold hands and whatever. LOL

No issue we'll keep posting and be happy.

3
 

Do you know the words to Kum-ba-Ya!

Tee

LOL
 

I gotthe words to Micheal row the boat ashore, i downloaded them of napster. But no Kum-By-ya

I had the Ball trick done beautifully yesterday.

F1 throws over to 1B for a pick-off attempt to no avail. F1 walks toward 1B after coming to a stop about 1/2 between the mound and the base. He just as F3 is about to toss him the ball bends over to tie a lace. F3 stops his throw while R1 takes about 3 steps off the base back turned then gets tagged.

I was going to submit an edit on that but the post seemed kinda dead but thanks for correcting my error. I got it confused with licking the fingers.