Anyone have an opinion on intentional walks used during youth baseball games? is it fair to the batter or pitcher? how is it perceived?

This child is only 11 years old, the level of his skill is exceptional both offensively and defensively.

Thanks

I have mixed feelings about this matter. Intentional walks are part of the game, but, youth baseball is meant to be for the kids to have fun and learn the game with the exception of tournament play. Sometimes the coaches take things a lil too far in making decisions like that at this level of ball. Then again, if you ask the youth playing the game they all want to win. Intentionally walking a player is what it takes sometime during a particular time in the game to satisfy your teams expectations of you as a coach. If 1st base is empty an intentional walk may be beneficial to accomplishing the goals of your team. I have seen, unfortunately, coaches intentionally walk a particular player 4 times in one game with and without runners on because he didn't want him to hit a home run on his son who was pitching.

You did ask for an opinion, so here is mine. There is a time and a place for everything.

Intentional walks are part of the game. Managers use intentional walks to produce a force play which if it works can get the team out of an inning.

The following is not directed to anyone, just a general statement.
A word to the wise - it's time to stop this "is it fair to the kids" crap! We need to teach the game as it is. As an upper level official, I see the game deteriorating more and more to make it "fair" for all. This is baseball, the game is designed for failure - you have to beat the game before you can beat your opponent.

Intentional walks are part of the game at all levels. Unfortunately, the rules in the lower levels are not the same as those in the majors. I have seen games where a batter never gets to see a pitch. Walked 4 times straight. How is that a learning experience for the players on either team? The coach is obviously more interested in his ego than in developing baseball players.

Here is what I would like to see. First of all, throw the ball. The batter should have the right to the pitch. Just because the ump has other things to do and wants to speed up the game isn't an excuse for depriving a player of his opportunity at bat. Alot can happen in four pitches at the ll year old level. A wild pitch may advance the runners. The catcher may make a poor throw back to the pitcher. That's the way the game is. Directing the run to first with no pitches thrown is a huge advantage for the defense. That's not the way it is played in the pros.

Another option that is used in some leagues (and has even been considered in the pros) is to include a penalty for walking a batter more than once. The first intentional walk results in the batter getting first base. The second intentional walk of the same batter results in the batter being awarded second base. Walk him a third time (intentionally) and he gets third. I would prefer to see a limit of one intentional walk per batter in a game. This would encourage coaches to coach, pitchers to pitch, fielders to field and batters to bat.

Most youth baseball leagues claim to encourage sportsmanship and the development of baseball skills. Preventing an eleven year-old kid from getting an opportunity to bat doesn't support either.

The reason the game is deteroirating is because of these idiot coaches who are trying to win every game at the LL level. How can a kid beat the game when he never gets to see a pitch? How can a kid beat the game when he is sitting on the bench all year because he hasn't blossomed as quickly as the other players. The game would be in great shape and there would be no need for any of these rules if the coaches at this level would TEACH THE GAME, and teach it to EVERYONE, rather than try to be the next Joe Torre.

I coach a high school team and every year, without fail, I have to teach all the freshman everything they should have already learned from their previous coaches, but didn't because they were more concerned about winning than teaching.

I once saw a youth game that placed a limit on the number of batters in the inning. Can't remember the exact number; it might have been 8. The last batter could not walk—he had to hit the ball or strike out. However, the league rule specified that if the last batter was hit by a pitch, he went to 1B and the next batter then became the last batter.

(This league also had "must slide" rules and other idiocies.)

In the final inning, the trailing team rallied and sent their best hitter up as the last batter with runners on 2B and 3B. The coach went to the mound to confer with the pitcher. The next pitch hit the batter.

Can't prove anything, but . . .

People were not happy.

Ask yourself this: Is it unfair to intentionally walk Barry Bonds all the time? He is just as beyond everyone else in his peer group as your 11 year old probably is...

Hey it was great to hear everyone's thoughts on this particular issue.

The player is not my son, he is an 11 year old kid who just loves to play the game. He works hard at it without being a show off, his parents have done a great job in keeping him grounded.

Yet over the years I have seen a lot of kids play baseball and I personally had not witnessed this situation at his age group. There were two outs, a man on 2nd and 3rd and he came up to bat. He could have easily brought both guys home.

This was a rare situation and from what I understand hadn't happened in years. I suppose it could be viewed as the opposing coach not having enough confidence and respect for his pitcher or knowing if he let the kid bat he was going to lose the game.

But it's just a game - no one gets paid. Has the level of competition gotten so out of control that coaches looking at the big picture?

What happened to kids playing a game of ball, teaching them to play fair and working as a team?

In 12 years of coaching youth baseball, I only intentionally walked a player once (age 12), after he had already hit 2 home runs in the game. And afterwards, I wished I had not.

Wow, thank you for that wholly gratuitous slam at umpires, right out of the blue.

Maybe it's just my "umpire bias," but I really don't think in those leagues that have a rule allowing a batter to be waved to 1B for an intentional walk, that the rationale was because the UMPIRES have "other things to do."

Sheesh.

Dave H- You're right. The ump doesn't make the rule. He is put in a position where he has to do it even if he may disagree. I have seen some umps give the coach a nasty look when they over use the intentional walk.

GreyMule-We had a similar rule, but it worked the other way. Teams were limited to 9 batters in the inning. In this case, they had the rule that the inning could not end with a batter struck by the pitch. We only encountered one team that took advantage of this rule. After facing 8 batters and not hitting a one, the 9th batter was hit by the first pitch. So were the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th batters. One of our parents clearly heard the coach tell a batter to lean into the pitch. We positioned someone behind the backstop and they verified that every kid was leaning into the strike zone. The coach for the other team thought it was funny. The ump was inexperienced and wouldn't make the proper call. They changed the rule after that season.

An intentional walk in this situation is not unusual or abnormal. If the game is being played competitively for the purpose of determining a league champion, then nobody should hold it against a coach for employing a legal and common strategy to try to maximize his teams chances of winning.

If the league is not competitive, meaning no scores or standings are being kept and it's truly just for fun, then you've got an argument. But I doubt your league is structured that way.

Your first post had me thinking this kid was such a superstar that the problem was he was always being IBB'ed. Now that you've explained the situation in more detail, I think your gripe isn't particularly valid.

Response to Dave Hensley:

Please consider this was one situation which several coaches, umpires and players questioned. What was posted was not explained in detail and based on the lack of information provided I can see where you might not be able to consider the big picture.

My intention was not to gripe but to get a feel of what others might have to say in a situation such as this.

We are talking about a true all-star player and this is from a coaches/umpires observation. If he sticks with the game (and I quite certain he will) he will definately be a player to reckon with as the years go by,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gsf23
[B]You have to teach the Freshmen? Is LL now the official training Camp for HS ball? Aren't freshmen suppose to be the begining level for HS ball, the level were they are learning the game so that they may be able to move on to JV and the Varsity.

As far as the intentional walk being fair. The next thing you know, they will be making rules that a batter shouldn't be able to be thrown out at first, after haveing to run all that far.

Gentlemen we keep trying to relate 8-11 year olds to professional players. Quit living your dreams through your kids and let them grow up

Who cares? If the situation calls for an IBB, then walk him! Baseball is a team game. If you're keeping score (and I'm sure you are) and it makes sense to walk him, then do it.

It's not going to hurt his development. Battering an 11-year-old pitcher does nothing to help his development anyway. And when he gets older they won't walk him as much. Unless he's Barry Bonds.

Legislate the IBB away and I'll have my pitcher throw four in the dirt. You can't stop this, and you shouldn't

--Rich

<i> Originally posted by polyck
Anyone have an opinion on intentional walks used during youth baseball games? is it fair to the batter or pitcher? how is it perceived?

This child is only 11 years old, the level of his skill is exceptional both offensively and defensively. </i>

Since we are talking about kids who do not shave, I do not think it's sportsmanlike to Intentionally walk an 11 yr. old.

The baseball gurus can rectify this situation a little. Baseball is the ONLY Sport which can actually take away a TEAMS best player.

You can try it in basketball / football but it is not guaranteed. Michael Jordan was Double / Triple Teamed but he still scored 30 a game. Lawrence Taylot (LT) was often double / triple teamed as well but that did not stop him from getting to the QB. However, in baseball you can simply avoid confrontation by the IW.

IMO, the IW is what detracts from baseball. People do not go to the game to watch their STAR get walked. One way around it would be to make a walk (Any type of walk not just an intentional walk) a 2 base award instead of a one base award.

Intentional walks mostly occur when a runner is on second and the teams best hitter is coming up and a weak hitter is on deck. The coach doesn't want to risk it. However, if the award were 2 bases it would FORCE F1 to pitch to the batter or give up a Gimme run.

In Summary, IMO I do not think it's appropriate no matter what level of competition for a team to IW an 11 yr. old.

Pete Booth

IW a batter at the youth levels is no guarantee of anything working out for the defense. For one, most kids cannot turn a double play in the first place. This can be a hard thing for even some HS teams at times. Putting a runner on the base can be an automatic run if the defense does not field what is considered to be a "routine" play. If that tactic worked, you might see it more often. But it usually it completely backfires and the ball hit right to the SS goes over his head or thru the legs and that runner ends up on 3rd base with no outs.

IW are apart of the game. There is no reason that kids that age cannot handle that. They might not get a chance to bat, but they are on base and get to run the bases. Not sure why this is an issue?

Peace

Let's have them use tennis rackets for bats and give them five strikes instead of three. Your suggestion is no better.

Or just bean him on the first pitch. Freezes the runners, and saves wear and tear on the pitcher's arm. :)

Intentional Walk?
 

Rich,
I have to agree with you. Our job as officials is to administer the rules as they're written. That's all.

If we don't like the rule . . . who cares? We may have to sympathize; but that's as far as it can go.

I have "overruled" the rules in some youth leagues; as far as having to pitch four times. It doesn't make any sense in time-limit games.

Jerry

Re: Intentional Walk?
 

Excuse me, but doesn't your last statement completely contradict your first two?

Dave,
No conflict at all. What I was advocating was to enforce the rules as they're written. That part's a "no-brainer".

However, some circumstances (such as impending darkness, time limit, age of the participants and safety concerns; to name just a few)dictate the UIC needs to act prudently and diplomatically but without jeopardizing the integrity of the game.

A matter of priorities actually. I prefer to manage games on the side of safety and expediency, while others would prefer following the "letter of the law" . . . even if it means not being able to complete a game.

Jerry

So, to summarize:

If I deviate from the written rule, that's wrong.

If you deviate, it's allowed.

;)

Bob,
Finally! A voice of understanding!

Hmmmmm. Didn't a MLB All Star game have something similar recently? (i.e. A ruling that contradicted the rules.)

Youth games, while played under a specific set of rules, still require some reasonable accomodation under certain circumstances. My opinion only.

Jerry

True. But the league (LL, PONY, Dixie, Babe Ruth, etc)
takes that into consideration in their "add-on rules". It still isn't left to the umpire.

In your MLB All Star game example, the decision was made by the league officials.

In the original post, "Polyck" asked for opinions. That's what I gave. I don't give a rat's *** if anyone agrees with my opinion or not.

I still maintain; that under certain circumstances, the UIC not only has the option, but the obligation, to make rulings that may contradict the written rules and the letter of the law for the sake of safety and expediency.

Jerry

So lets understand this Jerry.

If you feel that 2 outs are necessary to expedite the game to completion, then it is ok to do. Don't the rules make allowances for conditions that may shorten a game, say like rain or darkness.

Or are you choosing to override these also?

Where does it stop? Or is this another edict for Jerry to decide.

jicecone,
Don't be an idiot.

This thread deals with whether to allow intentional walks at the youth level.

My replies were very specific and referenced rules that have little, if any bearing on the outcome of the game.

If you choose to interpret my comments in any other way, that's certainly your prerogative; but counter-productive to the spirit of this forum.

Jerry

Sorry, I was applying standard interpretations of the English language to your post. My bad.

So lets see, your diction is to copious for my comprehension, correct.

I apologize, I will go to the Spanish version of this Forum because I am not to good with this , How you say, English version.

Some of us may think that there's another idiot here and it isn't jicecone.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[B]No matter, Rich. Jerry doesn't give a rat's **s if anyone agrees with him or not. Hell, he doesn't even agree with himself!

:rolleyes:

jicecone and others,
When you learn how to officiate; let me know.

Jerry

Ouch!
 

I think many of us must be nearing the end of our season and the coaches are getting to us.

It is somewhat entertaining but overall, man, what a waste of time to read.

see ya later!

Thanks, Tony!

Actually . . . we've just formed the WBUA . . . "Women's Baseball Umpire Association" . . . a national non-profit group concentrating on workshops, seminars, etc. for the up-and-coming AAU sport of "Female Baseball" (NOT SOFTBALL!!!!!). And to officiate games throughout the U.S.

Any interest nationally out there?????


E-Mail me at "[email protected]"

Jerry

How would you possibly know?

Rich,
My association with the Roders, Rowe's, Reed's and MLB.

And yours?

Jerry

Namedropping means nothing to me. And most people that associate with professionals act like a professional in public. You act alike an arrogant a$$.

Rich,
You're the one that asked the question!!!

Name-dropping has nothing to do with it. Should I have answered differently?

Jerry

Re: Intentional Walk?
 

When you write the above, you are stating that the umpires job is to enforce the regulations that are on the book, even if we don't like them.

How then, can you, in the very next sentence state "I have "overruled" the rules in some youth leagues; as far as having to pitch four times. It doesn't make any sense in time-limit games." The two sentences are in opposition to each other.

Either we enforce the rules that are written (like 'em or not) or we don't enforce the rules as written.

Intentional walks make sense in a timed game. They make sense because you should have to throw the ball to the plate four times. I just watched ESPN this morning and a major league pitcher threw a ball to the backstop on an intentional walk once and except for terrific athletic play by his catcher, nearly twice. If you can't execute the play, you get the resultant penalty of a wild pitch.

In a timed game, there is now also a time penalty that the coach has to consider if he decides to intentionally walk a player. If the team runs out of time in the end, then take you accept your penalty and go home. Besides, you would have to incur atleast the same amount of time to pitch to the kid. That takes time too. So by just giving the player a base with out pitching to him, you are giving them time they wouldn't have had. That's not right

In the end, we as umpires try to enforce the rules as best we can. We don't get to pick and choose what rules to enforce. It is not our job. If you don't like the rule, petition to whomever you have to to change it. Change 'em yourself and you open up a whole can of worms by doing that.

Are you an umpire, or an umpire groupie?

And would you favor us mere mortals by telling us exactly what this relatioship is?

From JRutledge:
For one, most kids cannot turn a double play in the first place. This can be a hard thing for even some HS teams at times.

Hate to be one to disagree..I would have agreed with you if I hadn't witnessed it myself...Not only does this group of players turn double plays but two weeks ago this kids team executed an amazing triple play! I have to say it was handled with ease and control you would have never thought they were just kids..

Intentional walks
 

I don't recall who responded with "kids should be give tennis rackets...." - but wasn't that comment a bit out of line..

I do appreciate those of you who submitted opinions as it related to my question. But some of the comments and opinions were harsh and frankly down right cruel. The fact that some of these kids put everything they have into the game of baseball and for someone to invalidate what they bring to the game is sad...Whether the player's age is 11 or 40 all they want is an umpire who is fair and consistent. The players at this level don't get paid, but they know the umpires do so give em' break.

have a great weekend and don't forget if you are officiating this weekend it's just a game to the players and they're out there for the thrill not the money.

Wow. The silence is deafening.

Re: Intentional walks
 

Thank you so much for your penetrating insight. Yes, we're all just money grubbing whores, but now that you've been involved in the great game for, what, a couple of years, you're here to set us all straight.

You know, you shouldn't ask a question if you're not prepared to deal with the answers you're likely to get.

Re: Re: Intentional walks
 

Out of line? Nonsense. What's out of line is thinking that an 11-year-old is something special compared to the rest of the kids playing. If the coaches want to walk him, then they should. It's a team sport.

But I *am* a money grubbing whore, I guess. I umpire for money and tonight I worked my 18th and 19th games. I'm excited because once I hit game 22 I'll break even with my expenses (gear, clothing, dues, etc.) and can actually put some of the money in the bank. I wonder how many players spend as much as I do in order to play.

I was curious, so I just counted mine up and I did 36 and 37 today, and considering equipment, dues, and especially travel, I consider the money I make BEER money. I always love to hear "with the money we are paying...". I don't toss as often as some folks on this forum, but one of mine from 2 years ago came after these words were spoken. Of course these were not the first words in this discussion.

36 and 37? You either don't live in the north or play with the orange ball in the snow :)

20 and 21 today. D-III doubleheader that took only 4:45 to complete, for which I am thankful.

I finished #35 today, if I counted correctly, and I don't live that far south of you.

No, I am not in the North. I did my first game on Feb 20, and I remember it being cool that night (ie jacket, gloves, etc.), but the double header on the next day was quite nice.

Maybe you're a whore :)

Actually, I started on March 31, so I don't know how much of a headstart you had -- come to think of it, I lost a week-and-a-half due to business travel, so I'd probably have 7-10 more too.

How was the weather last night? We used about a ton of diamond dry and managed to get 2 in, although I think everyone would've been better served by rescheduling. But I worked the bases the first game, so I kept quiet and let the plate guy decide to keep going.

--Rich

Friday was one of my two scheduled off days in April (the other was Easter Sunday, and I had one rain out and one scheduling snafu where 3 umpires showed up -- I left).

My season started March 23, but I only had three games in March.

WOW!! Where did this all come from?

To Rich:

I was not setting anyone straight and if you consider yourselves money grubbing whores then so be it. After reading the opinions of those who had something valid to add and those individuals who added no value, I pretty much just considered the source! Just for your info - I have been in this now for over 20 years - every once in a while I do come across those officials who don't know when it's time to call it a day.

Unlike you, I don't need to tell someone how many games I've done in a day nor do they need to know what I do with my money.

Just be fair - I like you expect managers, coaches and spectators of the game to play by the rules, why aren't they entitled to receive it from those officiating the game?

I am not here to tell anyone what to do or to set anyone straight I asked a question, for some reason some felt the need to take it to a whole other level. It wasn't personal.


Sarcasm at its best:

Comments from Rich Fronheiser:

Thank you so much for your penetrating insight. Yes, we're all just money grubbing whores, but now that you've been involved in the great game for, what, a couple of years, you're here to set us all straight.

You know, you shouldn't ask a question if you're not prepared to deal with the answers you're likely to get

It came from your rather amusing and at the same time irritating blend of ignorance and arrogance in coming to an umpires forum to float your trial balloon for outlawing intentional walks for super talented 12 yearolds.

And while Rich and I gave you very similar responses, you quoted me when you addressed Rich.

Dave GROW UP!!!!

So let me first say that Rich I do apologize that I only put your name it was suppose to include your partner Dave.

Rich actually piggy backed off of your opinion and he had the same comments...the two of you must be a class act. While reading another topic and finding out that Rich has no children certainly explains a lot about him.

Not everyone out there consider themselves "whores" as you so eloquently call yourselves.

IT WAS A QUESTION PEOPLE - SO MANY OF YOU PUT SO MUCH MORE INTO THIS THAN IT NEEDED.

MY ASKING FOR AN OPINION IS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE GUY WHO ASKED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED DURING HIS SON'S TEE BALL GAME.

BUT HERE AGAIN I AM JUST CONSIDERING THE SOURCE - YOUR RESPONSE WAS SOMETHING A 6 YEAR OLD MIGHT COME UP WITH.

BETWEEN YOU AND RICH YOUR COMMENTS SEEMED OUT OF LINE AND INAPPROPRIATE AT BEST.

Stop shouting, it's rude.

David Hensley..

My intent was to shout and if you don't like - DEAL WITH IT? But I'm glad you finally got the point...

I did deal with it. I told you to stop because it's rude.

The fact that I have no children allows me to be an impartial observer while I watch little 11-year-old Timmy's mom and dad gush about how he's going to be the next Barry Bonds if those bad, bad umpires wouldn't ring little Timmy up on that outside corner strike three.

Parents are ludicrous these days. I *was* a child once and it's amazing how people in my generation would get yelled at by a coach and then get yelled at by our parents for having to get yelled at by the coach. Parents today want to get the coach fired and tell their kid how bad of a coach the coach is.

And Dave is a great partner. We've umpired together and if all my umpiring partners were as good as Dave I'd never have good stories to tell. Well, there'd be a few, because there are still players, coaches, and parents to talk about.

And Dave has a few kids, so tell me what's wrong with his perspective.

--Rich

[/B][/QUOTE]

The fact that I have no children allows me to be an impartial observer while I watch little 11-year-old Timmy's mom and dad gush about how he's going to be the next Barry Bonds if those bad, bad umpires wouldn't ring little Timmy up on that outside corner strike three.

And Dave has a few kids, so tell me what's wrong with his perspective.

--Rich [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know that you were in partial in the question posed. I have several friends who don't have children and they agree at times they aren't impartial-in fact it is quite the opposite there are times and based on the circumstances there are some who just don't get it. It also doesn't mean that individuals with children are 100% objective either. At times there is no logical reason for the way people behave when it comes to competitive sports. When it comes to the adults both with or without children everyone's behavior has a tendancy to take a life of it's own.

Seriously, both of you made way to much out of a very simple question. Remember this player has absolutely no relation to me personally. He is just a nice kid with a great disposition and for only being 11yrs old he has the potential to play a good game, that is however if he doesn't become frustrated.

If anyone here felt that my question and/or the replies were out of line, it was never my intent to disrespect the umpires. I just wanted to hear opinions from someone other than the volunteer coaches who have forgotten why they signed up to coach a team. However, don't you think if coaches at this level start this kind of nonsense eventually kids start to lose interest and drop out of the game altogether?

I was certainly caught off with your responses and felt that no one in this forum should be made to feel they can't ask questions. But to tell someone their ignorant and doing this for everyone to see was wrong. I believe that this is why there is an email button which is where I think your negative and insulting comments should have been directed. So if you are going to do it keep it between the person your trying to make a point with not for the general public. It just invalidates the point we were all trying to make in the first place...

Now, now Dave and Rich. If you keep picking on the new kids in the neighborhood, no one will want to play with you.

Be nice to the rookie.

Thanks I think! This was an experience, diversity truly played a factor in this arena. Putting things into perspective definately added a different twist to my outlook and shocking actions of others in the world officiating outside of my home state.