Help, I need somebody, help!

[NSump]

Umpiring seems to be going in the same direction as most of society - try to please everyone.

Here is the play and how many people want you to handle it:

R2, two man system and you are in "C". Ground ball to short, throw to first pulls F3 off the base and he sweeps at the runner going past. You move toward first, use everything at your arsenault to determine if there was a tag and call him "SAFE".

Here comes the coach, F3 and they are yapping at you. "Ask for help" they say. You tell them you didn't see a tag, they again say "ask for help."

So, you go to the PU, who depending upon your 2-man system may have been moving toward 3rd if R2 tries for 3rd on the throw to 1st. He says he didn't see the tag. Your call remains and the coach is p*ssed, yaps some more and stomps off.

Next inning, the other team has the same situation, this time you SEE the tag and bang him out from "C". Off course, here comes the coach, asking for help. You refuse since you SAW the tag. He is really steamed now, "You asked for THEM."

You try to explain that you saw a tag,but the coach doesn't want to listen. The conversation disintegrates and ends in an ejection.

So, is there anything that could prevent this? IMHO, on the first play, the BU needs to live and die by his call. Recently, leagues are pushing the umpires to get help more often. IMHO, that thinking will create more problems. Unlike the Pro's or high level D1 games, we are often with partners who are learning. To ask for help indicates that we don't KNOW and are unsure. Often the system creates angles where we can't see everything adn need to use other clues to make a call. ONce we do so, we need to be prepared to live with it.

To constantly ask for help will just cause problems down the road.

Thoughts?

[FVB58]

[i]R2, two man system and you are in "C". Ground ball to short, throw to first pulls F3 off the base and he sweeps at the runner going past.
Next inning, the other team has the same situation, this time you SEE the tag and bang him out from "C".

[/B]

We use the pulled foot / swipe tag mechanic in our org. It IS a good mechanic. In the above sit. I would move from the plate toward third and keep a good look at the play at 1B. My partner should ask me if I had a tag, and I would tell him yes or no. He makes the safe/out call. Done properly it looks good and nobody complains. To be honest this happens maybe 5 to 6 times a season and I work everyday. The two-man system is far from perfect, so any way we can help each other get the call right is a good thing.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by FVB58
I would move from the plate toward third and keep a good look at the play at 1B. My partner should ask me if I had a tag, and I would tell him yes or no. He makes the safe/out call.

This is an important point.... ask for help FIRST and then make the call. It only takes a split second to notice whether your partner is available for help, then ask, then finally make the call - all this can be done with little more than a second's delay in making the call. It looks great and it SELLS THE CALL.

Making the call and then asking for help always raises doubt and often leads to controversy/ejection.

And... if there is a tag... I generally make it known that the tag is why the runner is out by stating, "OUT, on the tag!" This again sells the call - you saw that the defense was off the base and you saw that a tag was made.

This is NEVER a situation to ask for help. If you saw a tag, the runner is out. PERIOD. Just becasuse your partner didn't see a tag does not mean you are now going to discredit what you saw, change your call based upon your partner not seeing a tag, and call the runner safe. If that were the case, you might as well leave and let your partner call everything. Asking to have that call changed is not acceptable.

I am convinced that an umpire can make his calls in such a way that everybody believes the umpire. Many times I have made close calls and sold them so that no one questions the validity of the call - just that tiny voice in my own head that says, "did I get that one right?" If I later ask my partner, the response is usually, "That was a great call!"

There are only a few regular situations that can happen at 1st; think of how to sell the call for each of those situations.

[Rich]

Originally posted by NSump
Umpiring seems to be going in the same direction as most of society - try to please everyone.

Here is the play and how many people want you to handle it:

R2, two man system and you are in "C". Ground ball to short, throw to first pulls F3 off the base and he sweeps at the runner going past. You move toward first, use everything at your arsenault to determine if there was a tag and call him "SAFE".

Here comes the coach, F3 and they are yapping at you. "Ask for help" they say. You tell them you didn't see a tag, they again say "ask for help."

So, you go to the PU, who depending upon your 2-man system may have been moving toward 3rd if R2 tries for 3rd on the throw to 1st. He says he didn't see the tag. Your call remains and the coach is p*ssed, yaps some more and stomps off.

Next inning, the other team has the same situation, this time you SEE the tag and bang him out from "C". Off course, here comes the coach, asking for help. You refuse since you SAW the tag. He is really steamed now, "You asked for THEM."

You try to explain that you saw a tag,but the coach doesn't want to listen. The conversation disintegrates and ends in an ejection.

So, is there anything that could prevent this? IMHO, on the first play, the BU needs to live and die by his call. Recently, leagues are pushing the umpires to get help more often. IMHO, that thinking will create more problems. Unlike the Pro's or high level D1 games, we are often with partners who are learning. To ask for help indicates that we don't KNOW and are unsure. Often the system creates angles where we can't see everything adn need to use other clues to make a call. ONce we do so, we need to be prepared to live with it.

To constantly ask for help will just cause problems down the road.

Thoughts?

Don't ask in the first place. You said:

"Here comes the coach, F3 and they are yapping at you. "Ask for help" they say. You tell them you didn't see a tag, they again say "ask for help."

Say no. Tell them you got a good look at it and that's the end of it.

By asking your partner you set yourself up for the second ejection. Ask once and everyone thinks they can shop every call to the most sympathetic umpire.

The other responses in this thread are interesting. The PU's prime responsibility is NOT giving help on a swipe tag or pulled feet or other squirrels. By all means ask him. When he tells you he doesn't know, then the coaches will be convinced NEITHER of you saw the play.

I'd rather have to dump the first coach when I tell him I'm NOT asking. BTW, it never comes to this. Look him in the eye and tell him you got in position and made the call. End of story.

--Rich

[DG]

In this situation, PU should be available to provide info on swipe tag, or foot off base, but only if you ask first, before making a call. Once the call is made, safe or out, you are convinced of what you saw and no additional help is needed.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by NSump
Umpiring seems to be going in the same direction as most of society - try to please everyone.


You try to explain that you saw a tag,but the coach doesn't want to listen. The conversation disintegrates and ends in an ejection.

So, is there anything that could prevent this? IMHO, on the first play, the BU needs to live and die by his call. Recently, leagues are pushing the umpires to get help more often. IMHO, that thinking will create more problems. Unlike the Pro's or high level D1 games, we are often with partners who are learning. To ask for help indicates that we don't KNOW and are unsure. Often the system creates angles where we can't see everything adn need to use other clues to make a call. ONce we do so, we need to be prepared to live with it.

To constantly ask for help will just cause problems down the road.

Thoughts?

My question is what is wrong with telling a coach "NO." You make a judgment call, you see the play, you do not have to ever ask for help. I talk about these situation in my pregames almost all the time. And if my partner has some information that will help, he will do something to get my attention or we do nothing. But in these cases, I do what FVB58 says to do. You ask for help before you make a call and that is it. But if I am sure and I know my partner cannot help me, why not tell the coach, "NO." Who cares if they are upset. Let them be upset. Life goes on. But if they want you to make calls in a better position, they need to hire more umpires to work each game. Until they do that, they have to live with the limitations of a 2 man system.

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge


My question is what is wrong with telling a coach "NO." You make a judgment call, you see the play, you do not have to ever ask for help. I talk about these situation in my pregames almost all the time. And if my partner has some information that will help, he will do something to get my attention or we do nothing. But in these cases, I do what FVB58 says to do. You ask for help before you make a call and that is it. But if I am sure and I know my partner cannot help me, why not tell the coach, "NO." Who cares if they are upset. Let them be upset. Life goes on. But if they want you to make calls in a better position, they need to hire more umpires to work each game. Until they do that, they have to live with the limitations of a 2 man system.

Peace [/B]

Gee, we agree. I guess it is time to go to bed!

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG
In this situation, PU should be available to provide info on swipe tag, or foot off base, but only if you ask first, before making a call. Once the call is made, safe or out, you are convinced of what you saw and no additional help is needed.

*Should* be available to help? Who is watching R2 touch third and looking for possible obstruction on R2?

Like I said, umpires have primary and secondary responsibilities. Looking for swipe feet is usually down on the list, unless the bases are empty.

Make the calls yourself. Find some stones and stop trying to please everybody out there. No matter what you call or do on this play 50% of the people are going to be p1ssed off. May as well be because you made the call based on what you saw.

--Rich