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-   -   Peter, Peter, Peter.... (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/13262-peter-peter-peter.html)

Carl Childress Mon Apr 19, 2004 04:13pm

Re: Oh, please stop....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Striker991
Another reason I am not renewing my subscription to the paid part of this site...
I’m sorry you don’t plan to renew your subscription. At Officiating.com, we don’t have a “party line.” Each of our contributors is an independent contractor, just as they are when they accept assignments to umpire. Peter Osborne and Tim Stevens may disagree totally about a situation. We’ll provide both points of view to our readership. Disagreeing is healthy; being disagreeable isn’t.

One point Peter makes seem undeniable, and that is mechanics depend on the level of play and the situation. A two-man crew is always a crap shoot; you do the best you can to get to the best position possible. You do that by playing percentages. On that point you and he are in agreement in principle.

I understand you only do youth ball. That could mean you are primarily a small diamond umpire, and what Peter is advocating has little application to 60- or 70-foot bases. But sooner or later some assignor is going to see you call and — if your passion on the field is anything like your passion in the Forum — he’s going to want you to help him out in high school.

R1, left-handed pitcher, umpire in B. Lots of umpires will cheat closer to the mound to prepare for the pick-off play. Speedy R1, right-handed pitcher, umpire in B. Those same umpires likely will move closer to second, to prepare for the steal. It’s a matter of probabilities.

Umpires who don’t adjust to the level of play or the game situation are going against all conventional wisdom published by professional umpires and trainers. Take a look at the Gerry Davis tapes used in his umpire school. Their lesson is: Get where you need to be to make the best call. Don’t fall for anyone who says you can call a ball game just from thee working area.

After all, mechanics are merely a system of moving around the diamond so that umpires who don’t regularly work on the same crew can call together without stepping on each other’s toes. And mechanics change, evolve.

National League umpires for years straddled the foul line: They argued they got a better look at fair/foul down the line. American League umpires stood with both feet in foul territory: They argued that if they were hit by a ball, it was automatically foul.

For 40 years all umpires used the box, standing directly behind the catcher. Then, with the invention of the inside protector, some umpires adopted the slot. I used the box from 1954 to 2001. Now I teach only the slot — but only if the candidate adopts the Gerry Davis stance.

For the first seventeen years of my career, in a three-man crew, whenever a runner reached as far as second, the third-base umpire was in D. R1, R2? U1 in B, U3 in C. In 1972 a team of umpires in the International League developed most of our current system: If there’s a runner at first <i>with a double play possible</i> U1 remains at first. R1, R2: U1 in A, U3 in C. Even that’s changed. Now many associations tell U1: “Heck, you just stay in A.” R2, 2 out, U1 in A, U3 in B.

The major difference in opinion appears to be the definition of "anticipation." Here's what I wrote about that in <i>Working the Bases</i>, published and distributed by Gerry Davis Sports Education. (BTW: When I wrote that book, I still called from the box.)

<i>One of the major blunders made by umpires of amateur games is anticipation, not of where the play might occur (that's good) but what the call might be (that's bad). You've seen that happen to your partner.

Play: R1 rolls slowly to short. F6 hustles in, picks up the ball, drops it, picks it up, and fires an off-balance throw to first. The runner is safe. Right? Except when the umpire reviews that play, he realizes that....

Heck, you might even have done that yourself. I have, as you'll find out. In the 1990 National Baseball Congress World Series, some umpires and I were sitting around discussing benefit of the doubt and other oddities, like, what a bounce does to the speed of a throw. "Remember," I intoned sagely and correctly, "when that ball hits the dirt, it's going to slow down." Everyone nodded solemnly.

That evening, in the marquee game, a throw from third bounced in the dirt just before B1 hit the bag. "Safe!" I screamed safely and solemnly -- and wrongly. Almost the instant I signaled safe, I knew B1 was out. When the defensive coach popped out of the dugout and arrived in the middle of my face, I realized I couldn't say: "But the ball bounced, so he should have been safe." I told the truth: "The runner was slower than I anticipated. Yell a little. Uh, not too much, though."

But anticipating the next play is as important a skill as the umpire can have.</i>

Our goal at Officiating.com is never to <i>tell</I> any official how he should call, where he should stand. We think they should be exposed to many — and varied — ideas. That’s because we understand that in the long run each umpire will do what his association dictates.

When someone likes what we present in the magazine (in roughly seven sports), our hope is that he/she might help make a difference in the local association.

You seem to know what you want in an umpire. Put that into an article — and we’ll pay you for your ideas.

His High Holiness Mon Apr 19, 2004 04:15pm

Bad assumptions
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Striker991
To read what I wrote....

My specific point is purely anticipation DURING a play.

You, your very self said, "As a base umpire, I am fooled by the players about once every three games." If you let the play itself guide you to where you should be, you wouldn't be fooled at all, because you wouldn't be guessing er, sorry...anticipating. And, following correct mechanics, you would be in position to make a good call.

So I guess the umpires out there would have to make their own decision, right? Let's see, what are the choices? Follow Peter's instructions and get fooled once every three games, possibly being in the wrong place, making a bad call, or getting beaned once every three games. Or, following accepted mechanics, NOT anticipating DURING a play, and not getting fooled, because you are letting the play direct your movements.


So many assumptions, and two of them dead wrong. A third is probably wrong.

First, you wrote:

"...If you let the play itself guide you to where you should be, you wouldn't be fooled at all, because you wouldn't be guessing er, sorry...anticipating. And, following correct mechanics, you would be in position to make a good call."

That's true, I won't be fooled but it is false to say that I will be in the correct position to make the call. I will be near the working area for a call at first base in NCAA baseball. NCAA players are simply too quick and too strong for me to move very much after they indicate where they are going to throw the ball. For average high school ball, I can get a reasonable angle and distance. If you have never done NCAA ball, you cannot appreciate how fast these players are. You must experience it for yourself. All new NCAA umpires comment on how surprised they are at the quickness of the players at this level.

So, if it is correct for me to be two steps from the working area, then yes, I am in the correct position to make the call. However, I have no credibility if something goes wrong when I am 40 feet from the play. With accpeted mechanics, you do not get ideal angle and distance. You get what some big dog pro has determined is an acceptable compromise.

Second, you wrote:

"So I guess the umpires out there would have to make their own decision, right? Let's see, what are the choices? Follow Peter's instructions and get fooled once every three games, possibly being in the wrong place, making a bad call, or getting beaned once every three games."

That's deliberate deception on your part. I have never been beaned by a thrown ball. Where did I write that I take my eye off the ball or place myself in any possible throwing lane?

Here's the real choice. I can be in great position to make 98% of my calls and horrible position to make 2% of my calls. Or I can be is so-so position to make 100% of the calls. If I am in so-so position, I will be just like any other cookie cutter umpire. If I am just so-so, there is nothing to distiquish me from the 10 wannabe NCAA umpires available for each game. I will be a high school umpire.

One more luxury that I have that most umpires don't have. On the 2% of calls that I am in horrible position for, it is the players that screwed up, not me. And just like the example that I gave in the previous post, their coaches know it. I did not hear a word about that play at third. In any event my partner thought that I got it right. He was only a little farther away than me.

The third assumption that you got wrong is that I will blow a call that I am 70 feet away from. If my head is still and locked in, I can get at least as good a look at the play as the coach in the dugout. That's all I need for the rare call that I am out of position for. If I am on top of 98% of the plays, I can sell the 2% that I am out of position for. If I am so-so on all plays, the coach is going to be on my a$$ sooner or later.

A coach rarely comes out on me regarding one these rare plays that I am out of postition for. First, he knows that his team screwed up. And second, he knows that in the two umpire system, we have to make compromises. The answer to his question of having an umpire on top of every play is "4 umpires." His budget won't allow it.

Striker, you think like a rec ball umpire or high school umpire. When I was a high school umpire, I knew better than to share any of my ideas with my fellow umpires, especially those senior to me. They will not accept new stuff from a little dog. To get ahead in your organization it may be necessary for you to regurgitate the pablem that they feed you. To stay ahead, however, you will have to engage your brain.

Peter


Rich Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:32pm

Re: Oh, please continue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Quote:

Originally posted by Striker991
Another reason I am not renewing my subscription to the paid part of this site...

The type of mechanics you are talking about may (and I only say "may" because I "may" not agree) be appropriate for the most experienced umpires that have trouble hobbling about the infield and can no longer apply the correct mechanics. However, do not forget that your audience, or at least 95% or better, is not at that level. The only thing you are trying to prove is that you think because you are such a big dog with God's experience on the field, that incorrect mechanics are the right way to do it. I'm calling BS, and that umpires should do it the right way, using the correct mechanics, to be in the best position at the right time.

To teach something so drastically different to this audience is wrong and on the verge of malpractice. No one is talking about the mechanics of positioning at the start of the play. If you are in "C" with a runner on 2nd, you aren't anticipating a play at 3rd. Your statement to anticipate by moving to where you expect the play to be during the play is opening up a whole can of worms, especially for newer umpires. Anticipate the play....next anticipate the outcome. What did you see on the bang bang play? Why, OUT! of course...that is what I anticipated. An even worse outcome is not quite getting out of the way of the 85mph (embellished? maybe..) ball because I was anticipating it going somewhere other than it did.

So, I guess what I am really saying is to do what you are teaching...anticipate who your audience is and teach appropriately.

I appreciate very much the people who have trained me and are training me, because they realize what my level is and understand what I should be working on. In other words, if my career goal were to be a rocket scientist, I need to learn the basics about chemistry first. To show me how to do hands on experiments with rocket fuel when I am in High School is only going to get me hurt.


I am in good shape for age 53. I don't hobble, use a cane, or need a knee replacement. I am 6 feet tall and weigh 185 lbs so I am not overweight but there are no umpires my age or even with 15 years of my age that I know that can keep up with with 20 year old athletes who have visions of MLB in their heads. It ain't gonna happen, that's reality.

Yet I am suppose to use pro school mechanics developed for 20 something pro school students.

The mechanics are guidelines, starting points if you will. The great umpire adapts them to his abilities, not the other way around. When I was a new umpire, I was not given the option of changing the mechanics; it was one size fits all if you wanted to move up. With experience, comes privileges. Now, when I do a non-standard mechanic, people, even my assingor ask why, rather than condemning it.

In pro school, the goal is to master the mechanics and look good. Getting the calls right is of secondary importance.

At my level, getting the calls right is of primary importance. If I have to modify the mechanics, so be it. There are good reasons to modify the mechanics for umpires of all ages, depending on the situation. The pro mechanics were developed for new umpires who did not want to think or could not think because of their lack of experience.

With regards to the readership, I don't know want the exact experience level is of the paid subscriber. However, I deliberately try to address subjects which no one else is addressing. As GarthB has pointed out, there are a slew of writers addressing the latest rules, Little League, and and a host of the basic subjects. A good magazine presents material for all levels of experience. I am proud that I am taking on subjects that no one else is taking on.

I would hope that the rookie umpire would read my stuff with an idea as to where he can progress. I fully recognize that he might not be able to put it into practice in a new umpire career.

In any event, if you feel that my ideas are dangerous and will lead to lawsuits, you should take it up with management so that they can fire me. It would not be the first, second, or third time that I have been expelled from an internet umpire organization for stirring the pot and preaching heresy.

You deliberately misrepresented my article when you mentioned anticipating the outcome of the play. I never advocate that and there is no connection between anticipating where the play will be and anticipating the outcome.

Situation for wannabe NCAA umpires:

Bases loaded, two outs, pro school mechanics call for the umpire to be in C.

My NCAA evaluator was watching a wannabe umpire in this situation. He was in C as called for. When the count went to 3-2, the wannabe moved. Pro school mechanics require him to stay in C. They make no allowance for the count or number of outs.

The wannabe umpire moved to B. The NCAA evaluator commented that this was an umpire that he wanted to know more about. He was somebody who the evaluator could see understood the game. Yet he had adopted a non-standard mechanic.

If you think about it for a minute, you will understand why B is a superior position in this situation. Too bad that more umpires don't think. I write with the idea of making them think, not with the idea of bowing down and worshipping the gods of pro school.

Peter


How about worshipping the CCA manual, the book required to be used by all D-I conferences?

Comments like the above make me wonder. Any good umpire knows he can get the same position on a play at first from C as from B if he knows how to move and anticipates the play properly.

--Rich

Rich Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:53pm

Re: Bad assumptions
 
Quote:

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Quote:

Originally posted by Striker991
To read what I wrote....

My specific point is purely anticipation DURING a play.

You, your very self said, "As a base umpire, I am fooled by the players about once every three games." If you let the play itself guide you to where you should be, you wouldn't be fooled at all, because you wouldn't be guessing er, sorry...anticipating. And, following correct mechanics, you would be in position to make a good call.

So I guess the umpires out there would have to make their own decision, right? Let's see, what are the choices? Follow Peter's instructions and get fooled once every three games, possibly being in the wrong place, making a bad call, or getting beaned once every three games. Or, following accepted mechanics, NOT anticipating DURING a play, and not getting fooled, because you are letting the play direct your movements.




A coach rarely comes out on me regarding one these rare plays that I am out of postition for. First, he knows that his team screwed up. And second, he knows that in the two umpire system, we have to make compromises. The answer to his question of having an umpire on top of every play is "4 umpires." His budget won't allow it.



To show I'm not completely against what Peter writes, I will agree with this -- if there is a routine ground ball in a college game and the player makes the "wrong" choice, like throwing to third with R1&R2 with 2 outs, I likely will be making a long distance call at third. I'll admit and agree with that and in a 2-umpire crew there is little I can do about it. But I still don't think that C is inherently a worse starting position than B. Anticipating a play properly means that there is a lot of moving going on after that ball turns you toward the fielder.

scyguy Tue Apr 20, 2004 09:30am

here is a comment from a little dog proud to be a HS official, but anticipation to me is being aware of possibilities. For example, pitcher is working inside part of plate, LH hitter, defensive coach yells at RF to move toward CF. I'm in A. When I see all of this, I anticipate the possibliy of going out on a fly ball has increased.

Rich Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by scyguy
here is a comment from a little dog proud to be a HS official, but anticipation to me is being aware of possibilities. For example, pitcher is working inside part of plate, LH hitter, defensive coach yells at RF to move toward CF. I'm in A. When I see all of this, I anticipate the possibliy of going out on a fly ball has increased.
So you should then move 25 feet closer to the outfield wall to compensate for.....wait, wrong poster.

scyguy Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:41am

I'm simply saying that the possiblities have INCREASED. I'm not sure how to interpret your post, but I don't think you would disagree with what I am saying.

Rich Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by scyguy
I'm simply saying that the possiblities have INCREASED. I'm not sure how to interpret your post, but I don't think you would disagree with what I am saying.
I was poking fun at someone else. Not you.


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