My boss told me this today when I asked him how the umps were for his kids game on sat. R1, pick play. BU calls safe on close play. D manager asks PU for "appeal", PU bangs kid out. My boss tells me he went off, from the stands(I woulda loved to seen that), he refs football with us and also has managed PONY all-star teams, so he knows what is up!

Aside from a pre-game to eliminate this, what would you guys do to the PU, and when??? I'll tell ya what did happen after I see some input:)

When I was UIC of a LL, which I am assuming is what we are talking about here , and I heard of a situation like this I would call the umpire up after the game and ask what happen. Most of the time it was a totally different story from what the coach complained about. Then if I felt improper mechanics were used I would explain it to the umpire how to handle it the next time and why. End of situation.

If your boss that is an official, can't understand that Brinkman, West and Childress were busy that day and couldn't handle his sons game, then its a personal problem.

First off, if you need help to make a call, get it before you make the call. Once the call is made, you and everyone else has to live with it.

Now as the PU, if my partner makes a call without asking for help then a manager wants to appeal to me, I tell the manager to go to the umpire that made the call for a discussion/appeal. If my partner (after the manager pleads his case) comes to me, I turn my back and walk the other way. Why? Because in the pre-game, my partner and I discuss how this is to be worked. As the PU, I am always watching his back and I use 2 simple hand signals (palm flat out for safe or fist clenched for out). On a tough call I will emphatically say "good call!" to let the "by-standers" know that I am agreeing with my partner.

I'm not being an S.O.B. about this, I just can't stand an umpire that is indecisive and can't stand up for himself when he makes a call. Again, if you need help on the call, your delay mechanics should allow you to get the help before you make that call. After that, it's in the past.

I think most of us would agree with that, or at least some form of that, Mario.

The question is -- how to handle the PU's poor overcall, and when.

If I was their UIC or scheduler and this was brought to my attention, I'd call the umps to find out their side - if they agree with the circumstances, PU and I would have a long long talk, and I'd likely remind ALL of the umpires the proper mechanics and communication techniques in a sitch like this at our next meeting.

Our personal mechanic on this is that if manager appeals to PU they are ignored or at best directed to discuss it with BU. If BU, after discussion, needs to discuss with PU, the only thing we would EVER overrule on is a pulled foot or bobble that was hidden from view of the BU.

With some of the younger BU's (we have the occasional older teenager), we teach them to come to PU if it's just getting too hot for them. When they reach PU they just say "Back me up" and PU will make the safe or out call to agree with BU. If they say something else we'll discuss it (again - could be the pulled foot or bobble).

Sorry, I lost myself on the last post. Now that I found myself, this shouldn't happen with a good pre-game (which requires that both umpires arive a minimum of 30 minutes before the game).

If the incident still occurs as in the origional post, you can bet your life that there will be one heck of a post game meeting well away from anyone else. On the field, I would say nothing as he is still my partner. I'm not holding him in very high esteem right now but he is still my partner. I guess if he really ticked me off, I might call down to him on the next play @1st "what's your call on that one?". Nawww, that would be too easy! I'll make him suffer through a post game then make him buy coffee!

For years as an assignor, I found this to be the case. The version of events that I got from coaches and fans bore no resemblence to what the umpires reported. I would bet that Chris's boss has a totally different version of what happened than what the umpires reported back to their assignor. The umpires' version could have been something along the following lines:

The BU did not see the play or was very unsure about the call. He would blame this on someone stepping in front of him at the last minute. (He will rarely say that he was in the wrong place.) He may have signaled or asked the PU to change the call. The PU, having clearly seen the play, obliged his partner's request. Rather than being angry at his partner, the BU is happy that the PU saved him from a bad call.

Over on the paid part of this site, Rich Ives tells a story about a totally incompetent umpire that umpired one of the games that he coached. I would bet that what really happened bears little resemblence to Rich's story.

I have had the fortunate opportunity to have witnessed several of these s$$$houses as a neutral bystander evaluating umpires and then received the irate calls from coaches and parents the next day. While the umpires' version of events may have left out key points, the coach's/parent's version of events bore almost no resemblence to reality.

If I could generalize here, let me summarize. Umpires tend to leave out or minimize the mistakes that they made leading up to the s$$$house. However, the facts that I get from them are accurate, just not complete. Coaches and parents tend to make up facts or attribute motives to the umpires for which they have only the slimmest of evidence.

In years of dealing with these coaches and parents, I don't believe that they are deliberately lying. They are so wrapped up in winning that their minds immediately distort the truth so that they truly believe that an untruth is the truth.

Peter

I'll add this
 

I have had similar situations where a coach wants an appeal to the other official, I have always worked like this. I'll give a recent example.

I'm PU
Close play at third with an over slide and reach back, Runner definatly out by approx 3 inches on the reach back tag, but clearly safe on the original play. BU can't see over slide and tag and calls him safe. Offense coach comes out, calls time and walks to the BU tells him his version of events and calmly asksthat he may want to ask partner for help, BU does,, and calls me over, I call him down to me and meet him half way, no players no coaches, I tell him that 1st ofall does he want my opinion, he doesn't have to ask, he says yes, I tell him what i saw and say, it's your call, if you want to changethen do so, if you don't then don't, I'm behind you either way. This ump changed the call, delt with the upset coach and that was that.

I would never ever change any umps call, If they want to they can, but I'm not changing anything.

What ended up.....
 

At least at the game. After PU overuled BU, more experience BU went ballistic on the PU, right on the field. Fortunately, it was last inning so carry over did not carry over!! Boss-man told me lotsa folks were just amazed/in shock. Glad I was not involved. Now onto my kids game umps.....virtually no training, I am the most patient of the bunch of coaches out there....been there/done that. I am getting other parents jammin me up to "do something", not my place, certainly not during a game. I'll give the guys pointers after the game away from the others, but definately no "showing up". Glad I took this season off of youth ball:)

3appleshigh Has it right. All part of the pre-game. I never over rule my partner on a judgement call unless he asks.

That's a bad mechanic for a number of reasons.

Let's list some:

(1) Everyone thinks that you are selling your partner's bad call
(2) They think you're just as bad as your idiot partner

Simple question -- why would you EVER appeal something like this to your partner?

--Rich

Re: What ended up.....
 

Ballistic would likely be my response. Notice that the BU (veteran) didn't appeal. It was the defensive coach that appealed and the 'PU banged him out.' No discussion. No forethought. No future.

Plate ump doesn't make my calls for me. If the rookie wants to work that way then "Take it all son. I'll be waiting in the car when you're done."

I don't think there is anything "pregame" about this. It is so basically fundamental... don't you ever overrule me or you will never be my partner again. And I don't plan to be your partner for the remainder of this game. If you think I've made an incorrect ruling, then we can get together and discuss the situation and promptly do the right thing... BUT DON'T YOU EVER OVERRULE ONE OF MY JUDGEMENT CALLS!

This is an unforgivable sin worthy of a public lambasting.

Aaaaahhhhh I remember it well.... must have been over 10 years ago. The deliverer of my lambasting has since went to the ball diamond in the sky but he taught me a stiff lesson. Don't ever overrule your partner's judgement. Thank-you Ray; I remember.

although a semi-vet to the nfhs discussion site, these posts were fun to read. I am wondering on the one post about the kid oversliding third, how did the PU see the hand detach from the base but the BU could not? Maybe the view up the line allowed for a better angle. Either way, if I am the BU, I stand by my original call, no appeal, no discussion with PU. If I do allow appeal, coaches will want an appeal on every close play. Don't open this can of worms!!

Ask for help on play at 1st, for example, if in B and not sure of pulled foot, but do it before you make call. After call, sell yourself.

No. Don't do this. Realize that B is just a starting position and that you have legs capable of putting you closer to the play when it happens. Move, get and angle, get your own calls.

I had a play last night. Bases loaded, I'm the PU. Ball hit to the left side in such a way that the only possible play is at first base. Partner BU is in C. Bad throw, swipe tag. Partner points at me from essentially the same position he was in at the time of the pitch.

Tag was so hard on the BR it almost knocked him over. I gave him the help he asked for, but what many ignore is that you shouldn't NEED help in this situation. Get in position, move, get angle, watch the play. Make the call.

--Rich

I agree with Rick's point, but no matter where you go, and how well you position yourself, there WILL be instances where you KNOW you didn't see everything you needed to see, or that you SUSPECT there may have been something that you were unable to see. Don't ever let it be coach that gets you to ask for help. If something weird happens, and you DO need help - ask for it yourself, and be firm with the call after you get it.

No. Get the best look you can and make the call. And realize that when a coach "asks" he's asking because he's shopping around for a better call. You can say "NO" to him when he asks. He doesn't have a "right" to appeal judgment decisions.

rich you are correct the majority of the time, B or C, you still have time to get a good angle. But, there are times when an appeal is necessary. The way we handle it is BU replies "did he pull?", PU replies either "No he did not" while showing the out sign or "yes he did" showing the safe sign. The call is made by the PU not the BU. Works well for us. Similar in a sense to the check swing appeal.

And what happens if the PU is watching a runner touch the plate or watching another runner touch third -- his PRIMARY responsibilities, BTW?

Last night, I happened to be looking in the direction of first base. What if I wasn't, watching the runner touch home or watching the runner come around third? Actually, I glanced up at the moment the tag happened. What if I hadn't and my partner pointed? Should I shrug my shoulders?

I just hope everyone realizes that "going for help" isn't a foolproof option and is never better than working and getting your own calls.

--Rich

I guess it depends on the goal, Rich.

If the goal is to look good or keep coaches off your back, maybe you're right. If the goal is to get the right call as often as possible, there's nothing wrong with asking for help in those isolated instances where something odd happened to cause you to not see the whole play.

Our mechanic is similar to that above, although BU will ALWAYS make the final call. BU looks to home to see if PU is looking at him. If he's not, he's absorbed in his other responsibilities. If he is, BU can say "Did he pull?" PU says "He pulled, he pulled!" or "No, he did not", then BU makes the call.

I will agree that except in the rarest of instances (can't even think of one right now), BU would NEVER ask for help because a coach asked them to. It's BU's decision, and he must decide BEFORE he makes the call.

I will also agree that knowing you can ask for help should NEVER NEVER EVER give you excuse to do your best to get in position to make the call.

This one happened.......
 

a few years ago. I am PU in a late season Varsity playoff implication game. R1, ball hit to F6. All you hear from offense is"break it up!!" Kid from first is a freaking tank with jets. He gets beat by throw, then slides HARD, pivot man eludes, no throw, R1's large rear is sitting on bag, legs pointing to left field. Easy, huh?? Not for my prick-head partner.( I really cannot stand this mo-jo)He signals the R1 out....and thats it, no FPSR.(clear-cut, illegal slide hindered pivot man). D coach cometh, he's fuming!! Gets to pard, next thing I know, pard is pointing at me. I just said, "yours all the way". Then I stood back and enjoyed the scene.....LOL

In the FIRST "Doing It" column I ever wrote for <i>Referee</i> (March, 1984), I said: "Equally important, don't defend the umpire, even when he's right. That sounds paradoxical. It isn't. Suppose you say: 'That was a great call. Carl's doing a super job.' Then, when I blow the next one -- which I may very well do -- you're stuck and your silence now will deafen the crowd."

Re: This one happened.......
 

Why not help your partner get the call right, since he asked? He may have been thinking about the turn to first and not concentrating on FPSR.

I don't say anything when I think my partner has missed a call and I expect him to do me likewise. If I had a partner overrule a judgement call, or try to overrule a judgement call, we would have an on field discussion to get the call right, ie get it back to what I called. I would not go ballistic on him. Then we would discuss again post game, and I would try to avoid working with him in the future. Given that assignments happen, if I had him again, we would go over this subject again in pre-game.

I don't mind asking my partner for help, if I know he has a better angle and is watching the play, such as for plays at first with nobody on base. But I try to get a good angle and make 98% of the calls I am supposed to make. If I am PU I come up the line to help, if requested, if I am BU I expect my partner to be there for me if needed.

*IF* you're going to ask for help, I'd suggest asking "Did he have the bag?" or "Did he have a tag?" The "yes" answer is then an out, and the "no" answer a safe -- the same as on the more common "did he go" question.

The point I am trying to make is this: If you go for help, you've dumped the play in the PU's lap. By asking if the partner has a tag, you've already told everyone you didn't see a tag.

If you're partner isn't looking at the play (and looking for pulled feet and swipe tags is usually not the primary responsibility with the BU in C) you have no choice but to call the runner safe.

Now, what will the perception be after this happens?

(1) The base umpire didn't see it
(2) The plate umpire wasn't doing his "job"
(3) NOBODY actually saw the play
(4) Both umpires are idiots

The typical case in the 2-man system is that umpires do not read plays and move quickly enough when working the bases.

Here's a play that ACTUALLY happened Friday afternoon. College game (D-III). I'm BU in a 2-man.

Bases loaded, 2 outs. 3-2 count on the batter. Ball hit on the ground to F6. I started in the C position. Bad throw, swipe tag.

On the hit, I immediately read that the only play would be to first base. I made sure I wasn't in the throwing lane and took some very quick steps to get an angle on the play. By the time I came set, I was well on the "B" side of the mound. Swipe tag, I made the call. Wasn't an easy call, but nobody said a word. Sold the tag, made the call with confidence. Never once considered using the other umpire. He had other things going on, including R3 touching the plate and R2 touching and rounding third.

Do I care if umpires get help? I'm not sure. I hate it when a coach asks me to get help and then thinks I'm being unreasonable when I respond that I worked hard, got into position, and made the proper call.

--Rich

Re: Re: This one happened.......
 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Why not.....hmmmmm......well, there was no pivot, there was an illegal slide with no throw, his all the way. Plus, I can't stand the SOB and really enjoyed watching him get his arrogant a$$ chewed on. come to think of it, this guy also fell asleep on a check swing appeal in "A" on me one time.I pointed and asked, he was looking at some high school girl in the stands, he looked real stoopid that time. Check appeals I will always point down for, why not, I just basically said "ball", if pard wants to call "strike", fine by me!!

I try to help my BU on FPSR, especially when asked, regardless of what I think of him.

Interesting comment on positioning! I am a new ump and have only done 5 high school games to date. With the bases loaded situation and in the c position, it is sometimes difficult to get an angle fast enough (we were taught.. "don't make calls while you are on the move"). Yesterday, I had a play like your play described above... ball hit to the left side, bases loaded, I was in the C position...pitcher attempts to make play on ball, boobles, can't get runner at home...now turns to make play at third, too late...now looks to first (had a play but didn't make a throw). I would have been hard pressed to get an angle on sweep tag... Perhaps I was out of position? I have heard some guys say they stay in the B position with bases loaded and let UIC have third! Any thoughts?

When the ball is hit, step up and let the ball turn you. Take a few crossover steps to the "working area," which is the place behind the mound. Once a throw is made and you know where it is headed, take a few more steps and come set.

Since the bases were loaded and there was a runner scoring, you HAVE to get the angle on the sweep tag. Your partner has primary responsibilities (watching R3 touch home, watching R2 touch third, watching for obstruction on R2 rounding third) and he may not be able to help you at first. Better to assume he can't help you and work as hard as you can in getting the play right.

Moving on contact to a position where you can subsequently move when the fielder commits to a base is important. Angle over distance. You don't need to be on top of the play at third base if it happens there -- it is a force play. Slide over behind the mound and when you read the bad throw you should have an angle giving you the best look possible on a tag play. Use all the clues around you in making a decision -- did the glove collapse into the runner -- did the players' reaction tell you what happened?

Make the call confidently. Sell the call and if a coach comes out don't be quick in pushing responsibility to an umpire who may not have even had the chance to look in that direction.

--Rich

Thanks Rich for the tips. I'll work on those next time out. I also had a situation with a runner on first and in the B position, with pick off throws. It seems we are taught to get at least half way between the mound and second base in line with the outter part of mound (roughly). In this position and a quick throw to first, I felt I only had time to pivot and maybe get one step. The runners dives in, the first baseman tags on his back side, but I can't see the hand hit bag because the runner's body is blocking me. I quickly "sold" a safe a call, which had a few groans...lol. I felt the tag had to be high. We were taught that pick offs better be good to call a runner out. We also were taught that ties go to the ump!
I asked my partner an inning or so later, what he saw, and he said he thought he was out! Any tips!

You can only get one step sometimes. They teach three at umpire schools, but then I've watched minor league umpires only getting one in practice, same as me.

Your initial position is halfway between the rubber and second base (in depth) and you should be able to draw a line connecting the edge of the plate to the edge of the mound to a spot between your legs.

If you can only get one step, step with your left foot a big step FORWARD. Pivot on that foot and turn towards first.

The old joke is that it's only an out if the runner has a heart attack on the way back to first base and collapses. That's only slightly true. Actually, I have called outs from B on pickoffs, but you need to be certain that the runner IS out.

Forget about the groans. You'll get these no matter what you call. Your partner has the best view of the play, but it is never appropriate to go to him on a pickoff. NEVER.

--Rich

good stuff Rich. I really appreciate the input. I officiate basketball & soccer as well, but this is the first time going through an umpiring course. A clinic or school may be in the future.

you guys know that in a 2-man you cannot see everything. If I am PU with multiple runners, I will get a view that allows me to see runner at 3rd, runner coming into 3rd and the pull at first. Can I see all three at once? NO. But seeing runner touch home and seeing pull at first is not difficult to do. So what do you give up? For this reason, your point about leaving the play at first to the BU and worrying about your primary responsibilities is something to consider.

In our pre-game we discuss that help will be given on a pull if requested. Maybe this is something I need to reconsider.

BZ, I like you suggestion on the yes for out and no for safe. Consistency with check swing is a great point. Thanks

I would not expect the BU to be watching the plays at 1B unless there is no other play for him to watch.