Hey everyone, I'm a basketball referee who reads the basketball forum regularly and I'm also a HS baseball coach and I wanted to ask your opinion on the following: Yesterday, I was ejected from a game for the first time as a coach, and I felt that the ejection was unwarrented, here's the scenario:

I knew the BU from my days in HS where he worked in the athletic department and I played and sometimes he seemed like he had a chip on his shoulder toward me, other times he was fine. In the 3rd inning, I'm coaching 1st and the LHP makes a pickoff move without stepping toward 1st. I ask if his foot was on the rubber, and then ask for the rubber to be dusted off and I get I costic response effectively telling me to shut up which shocked me because I wasn't even questioning a call. Later on, with my team in the field, there is a play at 2nd in which the throw beats the runner by a good 10 feet and the tag is down, but my 2B lifts up the tag slightly to avoid being spiked and BU calls the runner safe. The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman. BU brushed me off and effectively gave me the stop sign, and in doing so referred to me by my first name. I felt that I wasn't being treated with the respect to warrant being called by my first name and I felt that doing so BU created an atmosphere of excessive familiarity, so I asked him to refer to me as "coach" from now on rather than by my first name, and as soon as I said that, he threw me out of the game.

I wonder what, given my context, some baseball umpires think of this ejection. I used no profanity, nor did I ever make a personal comment toward him. If I was officiating basketball, I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post.

As I read this, you are the assistant coach. Is that correct?

If so, then your job is to tell the runners to turn left. Period.

It's not your job to ask that the rubber be cleaned off. It's not your job to tell the umpire that you thought the call was terrible (especially after he's already discussed it with the head coach).

While none of the actions individually warranted an EJ (as I read them), I can see where some umpires would judge the cummulative effects as warranting an EJ ("the straw that broke the camel's back).

Seen but not heard.
 

I complete agree with Bob here, but have to elaborate a bit.

It is a pretty common practice in all sports that I officiate and I know others officiate, that Assistant coaches are to be seen an not heard. It is that way in Basketball and it is that way in Football as well. So you might not have used profanity, but it is not the obligation of an umpire to first of all listen to a request from a coach period if they do not want to, but is seen in unconfrontable way when an Asst. does this. I know many that might have thrown you out for just questioning them on the issue of what the pitcher did in the first place. I myself tend to be strict, but at the HS level most coaches do not understand this concept, so I usually give them a second to correct the situation. A couple days ago I had an Head Coach and an Asst. Coach try to question me about a call I made, and I said very clearly to the Head Coach, "why is he talking to me about this?" The Head Coach made it clear for the Asst. to be quiet and the Asst. did not say another word. But I know umpires without hesitation would have ejected the Asst. on the spot for even daring to question a call. And I know Basketball officials that will T Asst. for saying anything that questions them in any way. I tend to not be that way, but I do make it very clear that I am only going to listen to one coach throughout the game.

I understand that might be frustrating for you, but it does not help the game or us as umpires to listen to 2 or 3 voices when there is a dispute actively going on. For one we are not going to hear everyone's point of view clearly or anyone's point of view if 2 or more coaches are talking. Secondly, I had to earn the right to become an umpire at the level of that game, if you want to have the right to argue with umpires, become a Head Coach at that level (and this goes for Varsity coaches acting as Assistants in JV and lower level games as well). And this seems to be a very common practice of all the officials that I know at different levels. At least in the area I live.

Peace

I stopped reading after you said you were the first base coach. Not really, but my answer didn't change after that.

If you are coaching first base, either you are a non-traditional head coach or are an assistant coach. If you are an assistant, your job (as Bob said) is to tell the runner to turn left. You have no role arguing with an umpire -- the only person we're going to discuss this with is the head coach.

I'm not a housekeeper. I don't brush pitchers mounds and I don't brush bases, although I may kick some dirt off while a runner is gathering himself after a slide.

On the tag at second base -- he can sidestep and leave the glove in there. Sorry, I don't buy the injury excuse. While I am a firm believer in the neighborhood play, if the fielder is pulling the glove up and being so sloppy he forces me to call the runner safe, I'll do just that.

So you ask the umpire to be a housekeeper, you tell him he made a horrible call, and you "demand" that he call you "coach." If you were the head coach I'd simply find you annoying, but as the assistant I'd run you too. But I would've definitely told you that you were on thin ice and reminded you of your assistant role when you commented on a call.

Basketball equivalent: How would you react if an assistant stood up and openly questioned your calls from the bench? How short would your leash be?

--Rich

"I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post."

What I think is very simple, regardless of your position with the team.

You earn respect. The arrogance of beleiving that you can demand it, is a personal problem that sooner or latter your going to have to deal with.

Once you accomplish this, you will find out that you will be able to DISCUSS things in the latter innings of the game, because you will still be there.

Need mutual respect
 

Sorry,
I agree with all of the above and would add a couple of comments.

Sounds like you think there is some 'history' between you and the BU. If you think so then there is. You need to get over that and forget whatever history there was.

Umpires are never keen on having a coach tell them what to do. NEVER. Just as coaches are never keen on having an official tell them what to do. NEVER. You can't tell an umpire to clean off the rubber without creating some ire. You can't demand/tell an umpire to address you a particular way without compounding that aggravation. And surely you recognize that you can't tell an umpire he made a bad call, (even if he did - although in this case there was no tag, purportedly for safety reasons BUT THAT IS YOUR JUDGEMENT and not the umpire's. And it is only the umpire's judgement that counts.) without exacerbating the situation even further.

Essentially, you told him he made a bad call when you asked for the rubber to be cleaned off.

"Rubber"... strike one
"bad tag call"... strike two
"Call me coach"... you're gone whipper snapper. History or no history. Some umpires may tolerate this or not feel a need to deal with it. Veterans will likely run you - even a head coach, with that last comment, stands a good chance of getting a ticket for the bus to home.

You might never receive respect from and umpire, especially if you don't give respect. Telling the umpire how to do his job will never gain respect. Given the "history" you will likely need to make the first concessions and show your respect for the umpire's job... and you may have to do this for a long time without any return respect. But such is life. Good luck! ;)

first name
 

I have to say in many of my games up here in Canada I only deal with Coaches by first name. They can use mine or call be blue whatever they want. But I believe calling you by your first name in this instant was a warning that you were going too far and about to get run. You just supplied him a reason. Also My understanding is you were of some distance from him not having an up close conversation. Therefore you said loud enough for many to hear "Call me Coach!" I can't imagine too many umpire that would not chuck a coach for showing him up like that.

You are challenging his authority by that statement, he showed you who has the authority. Learn from it and go on.

I appreciate the feedback, but my role on the team is not that of an assistant coach, more of a non-conventional head coach. I run the pitchers and the defense, the other coach is basically the offensive coordinator. Both of us are present in the pregame meeting with the umpires. Even if I were an assistant coach, I disagree with the notion that assistants should be treated as if they have no role by the umpires/referees. I agree with the argument that umpires should hear only one voice, but I also don't think that umpires should treat anyone associated with the game with any measure of disrespect when a reasonable question is asked. Same goes in basketball. If a basketball coach asks a question in a reasonable manner and doesn't show me up, I will let him speak. This conversation occurred between innings, and when the umpire told me that he heard enough about the call, I ceased to argue, although in my opinion, it wasn't handled professionally. Due to the way the manner was handled, I asked that the umpire refrain from calling me by my first name, again, a seemingly reasonable request unrelated to the play. To get tossed for that, in my opinion, is absurd. It is not the equivalent of an assistant coach in basketball rising to question a decision, that would be if the "assistant" charged onto the field from the dugout and started a face to face argument. I am a sports official, I don't show up umpires or treat them disrespectfully as I have been on the other side many times. However, I respect your opinions and will take them into account.

<b>"The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman."</b>

This is where the umpire indeed made a mistake. He should have tossed you right then.

As you admit, the other coach handled the matter. Discussion is closed. Not only did you re-open the topic you did it an insulting manner an one in which accused him of allowing a player to be put at risk. I am amazed you were still in the game at that point.

If your name is indeed "Coach" is that how you introduced yourself at the plate meeting? Why would you even give your first name at introductions if you didn't want to be called that? I introduce myself as Ryan at the plate meeting when I work and actually would prefer coaches to refer to myslef by it; rather than "Hey blue" or "Ump." Maybe this is a personal opinion not widely agreed upon by other officials, but I find it more respectful if a coach takes the time to care who I am. Also, in return, I attempt to remember the coaches names and will refer to them by that. JMO. How do other officials feel about this?

I agree with your first quoted statement above.

WHY did you request him to call you coach or not by your first name? This appears to be in the midst of an act of confrontation or effrontery; having not been there, I can't tell who started it but surely you continued the confrontation by your request to be called coach. That was not a step towards familiarity and respect (they seem to go together). This was a wrong move and you did disrespect him.

As an umpire, the bad tag deal would have been a safety concern for me. If you feel your defender was avoiding a malicious collision or being spiked, I would have raised that issue rather than worrying about the missed tag call. "Was that a legal slide? It looked like he had his cleats up in the air and I think that was why my guy got out of the way rather than making the tag and getting cut up. He was protecting himself by avoiding contact. That looked like, maybe, it could have been called an illegal slide."

Approaching a different facet of the play may have maintained your professional relationship.

You may have paid his wages but surely you recognize that you are not his boss. He is there to be impartial and equitable to both teams. If he tolerates you telling him to clean the rubber, and telling him to speak to you a certain way, he has to tolerate it from the other coaches too. And maybe the players too. And maybe the fans... Not a good situation.

These are obviously just my opinions, and I hope they help.

You're right, the conversation should never have been restarted, but with regards to DownTownTonyBrown's post, my comments between innings, although they reflected what I felt of his call were directed at the injury concern for my 2B. The situation probably could have really been handled better on my end to avoid the confrontation, particularly given the umpire's demeanor toward me. It's my responsibility to know what the umpire's attitude is and act accordingly. While I still don't understand why my comment warranted ejection by itself, as I stopped the discussion when I was told and given the context, my actions were out of line in that situation and I should have known better than to re-address the situation at that point. I appreciate the feedback as it has helped me further understand the umpire's perspective, and although I am a sports official, it helps to listen to those who do baseball. I intend to be back here and to use this forum to discuss baseball umpiring as I use the basketball board for my basketball officiating. Thanks for the help.

[Edited by SMEngmann on Apr 8th, 2004 at 03:20 PM]

Speaking to an umpire/official with one voice is not being disrespectful in any way. Our job is hard enough to then be questioned by an individual that did not attend the pregame meeting (where this might be addressed). It is not our job to make everyone happy. I am not going to allow a player to step out of line, you are not that much different. We already allow head coaches to question us from time to time, which if we choose to is prohibited by the rules, but to allow an Asst. Coach to do the same, after the Head coach made his point? You must be sick if you think that should be allowed.


Even more of a reason to get tossed. You should not even be having a conversation with an umpire when the game is in between innings.

I agree that calling you by your first name is not a good thing. But I think adults allow this way too much in the first place, and allow many kids to call them by their first name. I agree that umpires as players and coaches should be more formal, but this is another discussion all together.


You need to go and read the rulebook in both baseball and basketball. It is technically against the rules to question an umpire or official when they are making decisions. Now of course we allow some questions to be asked, but not from an Asst. Coach. At least not the many umpires and officials that have extensive experience that I know. And most experienced coaches will not allow their Asst. Coach to even question an official or umpire.


Well you do not have to show up and umpire to be ejected. But then again, that is the reason we are having this discussion. I for one am not expecting you to accept everything I say, but if you understand that many feel that way, you might think twice when you confront an umpire. And being a official does not give you a pass either. I usually expect more from fellow officials and expect them to know things that non-officials that coach do not. But then again, you rolled the dice and the umpire made sure you crapped out. Maybe the next guy will not make an issue, but this one did. And that is all that matters.

Peace

I see nothing to justify an ejection. The guy had a burr under his saddle. Contary to popular opinion here, I treat all coaches, assistant or otherwise, as people. I will be happy to have a serious discussion with an assistant or a head coach, makes no difference to me. But the head coach better arrive soon, if I am having a discussion with an assistant because tossing an assistant will be an easy decision. But in this case, as described, I would have ignored you.

"...and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman..."

Coach,
what exactly did you hope to accomplish by making this statement?

I give you two strikes. 1) you picked up the arguement after your partner, co-coach, assistant finished it. 2) You called my call horrible, you have put me on the defensive...Lesson in dealing with people, don't put them on the defensive, it produces bad "ju ju"...

These two strikes with your house-cleaning instructions make my decision an easy one - it is time to clean my house - you are gone.

I don't get what's wrong with asking, not demanding, an umpire to clean the rubber if the runner cannot see it from first. I can understand where the second part of this incident is inappropriate, but I don't see how a simple question to ask the umpire to have the rubber cleaned is a strike against ejection. What if the runner, rather than the coach made the same request, is that tantamount to a first strike for an ejection? What if the catcher dusts dirt off the plate with his glove, do you consider that action showing up the plate umpire to the point that it is a strike toward ejection? By this logic, you would be ejecting catchers simply for dusting off the plate with their gloves and holding a close pitch for too long after receiving it. That being said, who would you rather have talk to you to bring up a question, the players or the coaches? I can buy the argument that bringing up a previous play warrants an ejection (although I think the manner in which it is brought up has a lot to do with whether a warning or an ejection should be issued), I simply do not buy the "straw that broke the camel's back" theory, with the first straw being a question about dusting off the rubber and the last being a request to be referred to as coach, rather than by a first name. Neither of these acts, even combined, warrant an ejection in my opinion, although I concede that bringing up a previous inning's play could warrant an ejection here.

You missed the part of the discussion were the call was already discussed the the head coach. You don't have the conversation more then once.

Also I'm sorry but arguing the call and then telling me to dust off the pitchers plate? That's blatently trying to show you up. I'd have had my first warning on that already.

Bob

Blarson, you got the sequence wrong, a couple of innings before, I asked the umpire to dust off the pitcher's plate on the behalf of my runner who could not see it (which, by the way, the other team had done earlier in the game). In both instances the pitcher for each team was sportsmanlike enough to dust off the pitcher's plate. The events did not happen as they are interpreted here, I simply asked, did not demand, that the pitcher's plate be cleaned, and I was effectively told to shut up. I did bring up a play the previous inning, and for that I was wrong, but I did so in a manner in which nobody but me and the umpire could hear or see the conversation, and I was given the stop sign by the umpire, which I feel was the correct call, although I concede after reading some posts that this could have been an ejectable offense. After the stop sign, given the abrasive attitude that I felt the umpire had toward me (seemed to me like he was getting personal), I asked him, not demanded of him, to be called coach for the duration of the game for the purpose of bringing professionalism back to the game, which I felt was lost. For this, he threw me out of the game.

I misinterpreted this part.

[/B] I ask if his foot was on the rubber, and then ask for the rubber to be dusted off[/B]

I interpreted that as to trying to argue a balk. Then requesting the dust. The request of the dust off could be intpreted as a show up. As for calling you coach being professional, actually the professional thing to do is the get the managers first names and refer to them by it. I know because this is something that I don't do well enough. I'm terrible w/ names. I think this may have just come off as being another barb even if that wasn't your intent.

It would be interesting to read the ejection report to have both sides. :)

Bob

The original post did not identify the "other coach" as the head coach. That is the assumption being made by all here, just becaue the guy that started this post was coaching 1B. But as I said before, "I treat all coaches, assistant or otherwise, as people." I personally think calling them by name is unprofessional, and I will not do it. The guy makes two comments and gets waxed. Way too sensitive for my tastes.

Re: DG
 

Like I said already, I would have ignored him, both times. You guys act like assistants don't exist but then you want to toss one for making two comments. If they truly don't exist, ignore them. We do see this differently. You guys need to chill a bit, you are way too sensitive.

Re: Re: DG
 

I know I never said that assistants do not exist, they have a valuable role in the game, but questioning what I do is not one of them. Assistants are their to help their team, not question what I do all day. What if there are 4 assitants on a team, am I suppose to listen to each point of view in order to run my game? If an assistant can pop off, then what do you think a player is allowed to do? There has to be one mouthpiece for a team, and if the assistant wants to run his mouth, then he needs to get assigned the job after the head coach is not availible anymore. But until then, I am only listening to one guy. It has nothing to do with being sensitive, it is not only the way it should be, but the way the rules (at least the levels that I do) make clear how the conduct is suppose to be in the game of baseball. And in the game of basketball which makes it very clear as well, assistants cannot pop off in any of the rules I do as well. Why do you think that is? For argument sake if we just focus on the FED game, it is clear that the committees do not want anyone but the head coach to speak for the team by what all sports that I do seem to say about assistants or bench personnel.

DG, if you are just going to ignore and assistant coach no matter what they say and do, that is definitely your right to do so. But when that assitant coach comes on the field and says something to you and holds up the game, tell me after that happens that you just "turned the other cheek" and ignored him, no matter what he said or did to you? When that coach calls you a name, tell me that you "looked the other way." Not if you are doing your job you are not. ;)

Peace

DG will learn, one day.

SMG, asking to dust off the rubber after a pick-off play is akin to questioning the call. Blue made a call that you don't agree with and cost you a runner and you immediately ask him to clean the rubber. If you did it to me, I see it as questioning my call and as an inference that I don't know what happened.

What might have been a better course to follow was on the way to your dugout between innings, cross the mound and wipe the rubber. Or have your pitcher do it. Sun Tzu once said that the "acme of skill is to win the battle without fighting". By following this course you prevent the "fight" and still accomplish the objective.

JR - "question what I do all day", we are talking about 2 comments. Only 2. Then you dream up a hypothetical situation involving 4 assistants coming at you, which has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not going to ignore the assistant(s) no matter what they say, but in this case, you know, the one we are discussing, where only 2 relative benign comments have been made. Come on now, "can you dust off the rubber", or, "bad call" are just not comments that are going to tick me off. Tick me off and I assure you will get dumped, but these two comments will not tick me off. Call me a name and I will be as fast as Matt Dillon on the draw. I can see it now. I send in my report and I list the reasons I tossed a guy as 1) he said "can you dust off the rubber" and 2) he said "bad call". By the way, when did it become "your" game (ie "run my game")? You act as if coaches and players are there for your entertainment.

Tim - I don't know what trendy means, and I am definitely not sensitive. Sensitive is when you dump guys for something simple.

JM- what am I going to learn one day? I ain't going to take no crap from nobody, but really "can you dust off the rubber" and "bad call". Get real.

I have only tossed two guys recently. The first was a coach who ran from 3b box to near 2b where I was to argue a call. I turned around after making the call and he was in my face. GONE. The other was a pitcher who said to me after a play he tried to make at 3b, you are "f--ing kidding", GONE. Both of these were instantaneous. But "can you dust off the rubber" and "bad call" just ain't going to do it for me.

For excessive arguing over minor points, I would throw you all out. GONE.

Like I said Tim, for excessive arguing over minor points, you are GONE. What are you doing back? You looking for a forfeit? I agree, let's get some real issues on here instead of this bull we have been discussing.

You made the claim that assitants were invisible, I did not say that. Then you said you would just ignore them. All I said, is how are you going to ignore assistants when in many cases there is more than one. It is not uncommon to have a close play and to be bombarded by 2 or 3 coaches. That is not a hypothetical, that has happen. It happen to me this week as a matter of fact. And if you think that is a minor point, I just want you to argue with 3 coaches and tell me how you will handle it. And I do work at many schools where 4 assistants is not completely out of the question. Sometimes the HC is not even on the field at all. The other comments just fueled the fire. But I know I am not dusting off any rubber and I am only going to tolerate so much lip from an assistant. Maybe that in itself was not an ejection, but it sure would be addressed and quickly at that.

To add to this, then you are going to allow a coach to continue a conversation that has already ended?

For me this is not about what level you do or do not do. But if you allow that kind of behavior, the other coach is going to lose respect for you, your partner might lose respect for you and your game just has every signs of going in the crapper. Because the next disputed call is going to get a even bigger response from a player, coach and possibly it will not be you that takes the heat. It might be your partner on a call he makes and takes the heat. And if you did that we would definitely have a talk after the game.

If you allow that, a spark might turn into an inferno.

Just one man's opinion, you have every right to do what you do in your games.

Peace

Obviously, I shortened "I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman" to "bad call". You forfeit also.

Oh sure, call Tim sensitive for providing what is the only sensiBLE way to handle this.

I acknowledge 1B coaches. I will say hi to them, ask them when their season is over, etc. But I don't discuss calls with them if they are not the head coach and I'm not sure I've ever seen a head coach working the 1B box.

I was working a college game yesterday and I made an out call on a very, very close play at first base. Here comes the first base coach into the outfield between innings looking to "discuss" the call I made three batters ago. I was kind and sensitive enough to pretend he wasn't there and keep walking deeper into the outfield grass, but he was on thin ice even heading to the outfield. Once I got far enough away, I turned around and he was still looking in my direction, walking away. I smiled and shrugged. Had he followed me into the outfield, he likely would've gotten ejected.

I had a basketball coach pull this co-coach nonsense on me earlier this season. I reminded him that he may claim to be a co-coach, but the only one I'm treating like a head coach is the guy using the box.

Forgive me for sounding like an a$$, but I'm not terribly interested in a coach's opinion on a judgment call. I'll let the head coach give a little opinion, because custom and tradition dictate that I do so. I've seen umpires that were more than happy to talk with all coaches about every possible thing, including the color of the sky and also happily appealing to their partner on every judgment call a coach didn't like. I simply won't do that, but because of umpires like you, I'm a bad guy. To heck with it -- I simply don't care.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Apr 9th, 2004 at 10:52 PM]

JR - I don't know how I can say this any clearer. I am not talking about what happened to you this week, or what might happen if several assistants came at you or me with arguments. I am talking about THE ORIGINAL POST, the one where only TWO comments were made. IN MY OPINION, the comments were benign and the correct thing to do is ignore whomever made them, assistants or head. You guys simply do not get it. THIS CASE, not a hypothecical one, or something that happened this week, THIS CASE. THAT IS MY OPINION and the way I would handle THIS CASE. I apologize for shouting but YOU JUST ARE NOT LISTENING.

We're listening. We just think you're wrong. Way wrong.

You cannot let an assistant coach bring up a call that was already discussed and then call such a call "horrible." Just that is something that deserves an ejection.

Heck, Ive been only doing this umpiring gig for three years, two for HS, and Ive learned to talk to just the one guy, the HC. I learned early to talk to the one guy, or your asking for trouble.
DG, you keep talking about TWO, only TWO comments. How many is too many for you? How many til you reach YOUR limit? You must have a number. Is it 3 then? 4? 5? Its either zero, or under your system, as many as they want. You let them have the TWO comments, then the precendent has been set. They think they can make comments the rest of the game. And games after that with officials who wont stand for it. But have to deal with it, because you let them in YOUR game.
I learned early on, and my games go much smoother. As opposed to when I first started, trying to lend an ear to everybody. "Gee, yeah Mr Asst Coach, what do you want to talk about."
Youll catch on someday.

Tim - "considering the source", you don't even know me, but for a personal comment I would eject you.

Rich - we should agree to disagree, but comment is not personal so you can stay.

Chuck - you are too late to get in on this discussion. Go home. "How many is too many?" We are talking about TWO, not hypotheticals. But to answer your question I could probably handle several BENIGN comments, such as the ones THIS POST was originally about, until it got twisted into hypothetical and unrealsitic situations.

Tim - a partner I would not want.

Why is it that guys like you, have to accuse everyone of not listening, when they do not agree with your point of view?

The cases are very much related and just like anything in officiating/umpiring, handling things usually have a philosophies that are behind them. And no matter what the circumstances are, I am not going to tolerate assistant coaches to question calls I make. And that does not make me sensitive because I like to run my game a certain way that the <b>rules not only require</b> but is the regular and understood custom.

Peace

DG: The comments wernt BENIGN. And, instead of telling me IM to late to get in on the discussion, THATS what you should be telling Mr Asst Coach. Glad to see you finally get it.

For SMEngmann ONLY!!!
 

If you do not learn anything from this discussion, you should realize that only ONE INDIVIDUAL agrees with you on this. But it is obvious that the typical customs of myself and most umpires that are responding, think you got what you deserved. I can tell you that all of us do not live in the same area, nor the same state and all of us are not umpiring on the same level. Take this for what it is worth, but it is clear that most umpires (and you can ask others not on this board). I have been officiating and umpiring for about 8-9 years. I work varsity in all my sports and I do some college basketball and baseball. I am just one person, but what I am telling you is very typical of other umpires and officials I deal with. I am not telling you this to pump myself up, I just in my travels have come in contact with many that feel the same way I do, and much of what I learned to do was thru reading many books on umpiring and officiating and attending camps. I think I am a pretty damn good umpire and do my best to avoid conflict on the field or court. But there are just things that are not tolerated and your actions might not get you ejected all the time (no one action will) but it will get the attention of the umpire at the game. Especially if you run into an experienced umpire. I guess your hope is, if you feel you did nothing wrong, then you better hope you run into DG. Because it is obvious if your run into anyone else on this board that reponded to this post, you would have gotten the same result. And it would not have been an issue about whether we call you by your first name or not. Because I do not believe in calling coaches by their first name when I am on the field. But I would take issue with your other comments and actions. If you are the HC, I would give you more rope, but I would not tolerate many of your actions then either. I just would give you an opportunity to correct yourself by what I say to you and my demeanor. It is up to you to realize when to cut it short. If you do not want to get ejected, it is your responsibly to understand that at the very least.

Peace

"I like to run my game". So fortunate we are that the teams will assemble for us to run our games. When did the umpires begin owning the game?

Well last time I checked, you get paid to run the game. And when things go bad, you get blamed for it. When things go good, you get praised for it. So whether you like it or not, it is "our game." If it was not, then they would put anyone on games where the spotlight is the brightest.

Peace

JR - we agree on one thing (thank goodness). I don't call coaches by name, and especially first name. "Coach" is the only word I know to address a head or assistant.

I am sure we agree on much more than just one thing, but I feel if you handle THIS SITUATION, the way you suggested, you will create more problems for yourself. And problems you could have avoided in my opinion.

Peace

JR - I have never had a problem I could not handle. Trust me on this, I will deal as necessary. For this case it is best to agree to disagree.

See, I knew you just didn't get it.

Tee is a partner I would work with every day of the week. He would get his own calls and take care of business. I'd know exactly where he was going to be before I saw him actually go there.

You? I'd be cleaning up after you like I have with some of my partners this year who think it better to let coaches yell at you and fish for second opinions.

This is an unimportant thing. I know some top umpires who use first names and I know some top umpires who do not.

Re: For SMEngmann ONLY!!!
 

JR, I appreciate your comments both here and in the basketball forum. I posted this scenario here to try to learn something rather than to get other umpires to give me a shoulder to cry on. I'm not trying to justify my actions at all, and I thank everyone who's given me the feedback that will help me improve my communication skills. I knew by bringing this to the forum that I'd get some harsh criticism and some good feedback and I thank everyone for it. As an official in basketball, I try to conduct myself in my role as a coach as respectfully as possible toward the umpires in baseball and I have learned how many umpires feel about this particular issue. I still don't concede that I should have been ejected for this particular series of events, but with the knowledge that most other umpires see it differently, I will have to use common sense and change my behavior. Thank you all.

I would like to add a couple of points.

First, remember that how you deal with an assistant coach says something about the person (umpire) you are. Many assistant coaches will become head coaches eventually. Treating them with respect is important I believe. However, I take less verbiage from an assistant than I do from a head coach. What I'm saying, be careful about saying that you not going to listen to them because they are an assistant coach.

Having said that, if an assistant questioned my integrity three times, he would probably get the boot.

Jay

I’m posting this against my better judgment. I want it clearly understood from the outset that I will not respond to any posts growing out my message.

I’m not defending the actions of the assistant coach. Instead, I want to focus for a moment on the advice given him by several respected members of this Board.

Instead of pointing out specific statements from individual umpires, I want to explain a little about my philosophy of handing a game played by amateurs. It’s what I do, it’s what I teach, and it’s what I recommend you do.

1. For the most part those of us who post to this Board are not full-time, professional officials. High school and college head coaches, on the other hand, make their living in baseball. We should recognize that fact in our dealings with them. Part of their duty is to defend their players, their school, their fans. Assistant coaches are also professionals, at least in Texas. They’re college graduates, they have teaching credentials, they are entitled to respect by virtue of their positions in the community. They are educators, not “rats.” Most of those posting in this thread are, strangely enough, enforcing a Little League rule, one that forbids assistants from coming out to discuss a play. But there is no comparable rule in either the NFHS or NCAA. Of course, we don’t allow two coaches on the field a one time. But if I make a dicey call on a play at first, (“He’s out. He’s out on the tag!”), and the assistant wants to find out what I saw, or argue that I saw it wrong, he’s entitled by the traditions of baseball to do so. It’s silly to say: “Get out of my face. I only talk to head coaches.” The head coach is all the way across the diamond. If he had rushed over to talk about the close tag play, some of the umpires on this Board would have said: “Get out of my face. From where you were, you couldn’t possibly see what happened.” Pretty good mechanics, huh? For one reason or another, I don’t have to discuss my call with anybody on defense.

2. In my association (109 members this year) a standard practice is: When the base umpire moves from A to B, he calls time at an appropriate moment and kicks the dirt off the pitcher’s plate. Several proposed actions in this thread, espoused as they were by amateur umpires, astonished me. But failing to clean the pitcher’s plate is at the top of the “surprise” list. I cannot think of any reason why an umpire wouldn’t do that. How does that detract from umpire dignity? When a catcher asks me if I would clean home plate, I am only too eager to comply. I ignore the fans – always. But coaches? Batters? Catchers? Likewise, a first-base coach says, “Carl, I can’t see the rubber.” “Time!” say I — and I clean that rubber. It’s simply the courteous thing to do. How long did it take? Why unnecessarily give the coach reason to complain? Umpires should not demand respect; they should earn it. Arrogance has no place on the amateur diamond.

3. My mother was fond of this saying from the Book of Proverbs in the Christian bible: “A soft answer turneth away wrath.” It requires but a moment of the umpire’s time for him to listen courteously to the coach — any coach. Those of you who are newcomers: If you want to succeed as a human being as well as an umpire, take the chips off your shoulders. React to repeated infractions; don’t overreact the first time a coach screws up — or you perceive he’s screwed up.

So why did you post it, then, Carl?

For all your many gifts, the ability to see anything in any way other than your own little myopic way is not one of them.

Regardless of what you do in Texico, in all the places I've lived it is common knowledge that an assistant coach does not leave his position and argue calls, especially after the head man has already done so. I am happy to tell an assistant what I saw provided he asks nicely and in the proper context. While I'm in the A position? Certainly. Interrupting the game and leaving his box? Never. Only the head man has that privilege. This has served me well. Since my first baseball game as a 13-year-old umpire in 1983, I have ejected exactly one assistant coach.

As far as brushing the pitcher's mound, what's the point? If the pitcher looks like he is on the mound, then he's on the mound. I'm not going to let him get away with anything untoward, so what's the point in cleaning the mound off? The pitchers around here use their gloves to clean off the mound anyway. And if you're proactive and get the plate between batters, you don't get asked to clean it. I can't remember the last time I was asked. Again, a clean plate is practically useless -- the pitcher, umpire, catcher, and hitter all know where the plate is, right?

It's great knowing that I'm going to get the last word with you, Carl, since you've already promised not to respond.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Apr 10th, 2004 at 04:14 PM]

I do not recall that anyone said not to listen to an assistant ever. We said (and I am mostly speaking for myself here) that we are not going to allow the same treatment from them. At least in my mind they are on a shorter leash. And whether or not the Assistant is going to be a head coach or not is not my concern. For one coaches come and go all the time. This is my 8th year and every year at some schools there are different coaches. And not all of them were assistants somewhere else.

Now when they become the head coach or if they become the head coach, then I will treat them accordingly. And that is why there are rules that dictate the behavior of the head coach and anyone that is not.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Peace

This is not true Carl. Many of the coaches are not even teachers or employees of the schools they coach with. That depends on the rules of the school districts that have athletic programs. And many Assistants are volunteers just like the ones I had to day at the host school of my doubleheader. Two of the 3 assistants had other jobs than teaching and one was a year removed from college. So to automatically say they are making a living is a stretch. And I can tell you that from my experience in all sports I have worked.



OK Carl, then you do it. It is your right to do so, but if they cannot see the rubber, it does not affect what I do or what I do not do. If I can see the plate or the rubber, I am not wiping them off. Just like if I make a call, I am not asking help from my partner because they want me to ask for help. I guess if they ask the base umpire to help me on a pitch, I should ask? You logic makes absolutely no sense.

What does that have to do with umpiring? We have a job to do, that job has expectations and mechanics. Because someone makes a request, does not mean we have to adhere to that request because they make it. I am sorry that it makes sense to you to do everything as an umpire, but I am not their servant or their butler. If they want certain things done, it is up to them to do it for themselves. I might do some things out of courtesy, but it is not my job description to wipe off the plate or the rubber at every request. Are you going to do that if they request such a thing after every pitch? I already know the answer to this one and most coaches no the answer to that one as well.

Peace

I remember how, in the good old days on UT and then UT2, Carl used to say that he was a terrible base umpire. I used to think he was being modest. Today, however, I see that he was being honest.

Yowza !!
 

Personally, I like a clean rubber.
;)

I stated this on page one of this thread and now I see it fitting for ALL, regardless of the Title that you may carry on the field. Officials included.

"You earn respect. The arrogance of believing that you can demand it, is a personal problem that sooner or latter your going to have to deal with."

If the shoe fits....yadi yadi yada.

What does that have to do with umpiring? We have a job to do, that job has expectations and mechanics. Because someone makes a request, does not mean we have to adhere to that request because they make it. I am sorry that it makes sense to you to do everything as an umpire, but I am not their servant or their butler. If they want certain things done, it is up to them to do it for themselves. I might do some things out of courtesy, but it is not my job description to wipe off the plate or the rubber at every request. Are you going to do that if they request such a thing after every pitch? I already know the answer to this one and most coaches no the answer to that one as well.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

It has a lot to do with umpiring. When the umpire is able to respond to the coach in a calm manner instead of the vigarious manner that is usually being used by the coach, then it has a calming effect on the coach.

I let the coach tell me his problem, and then calmly I say okay coach here's the rule, "...." now, lets play ball.

Surely we're not their servant, but by working with them it makes a heck of a lot better game.

You can stir the pot if you wish, but its not going to win you any points with the coaches or the players.

Thanks
DAvid

We are not talking about yelling at coaches or not yelling at coaches. We are talking about allowing a coach who is not the head coach (and the rules make this clear as well) to complain about calls we make. It is not their job to do that, it is not about yelling back at them or telling them to shut up. If I go to court and yell at the judge, I should not expect him to keep me out of jail or possibly or just turn the other cheek. Well in the game, we are the judges and we should expect a certain decorum from everyone involved.

This again is not about talking to them about calls. If I have discussed the call, I am not discussing it again. Sorry, but I am not. Communication is key to any officiating, but it is not our obligation to discuss every situation. As I said, if that is the case, do you discuss every pitch you call? And if you do not, why do you not discuss every call? For one it is against the rules and would slow up the game. Just like it is not the place of the coach that is not the head guy to be discussing calls that you made. Because all calls are not rule calls. If you make an out call, it is not about the rule, it is about your judgment and what you saw. I am sorry, I am not having a discussion with an Assistant about that call. Because if I do it once, I am going to be doing it all day.

David, have you been reading these posts? Stir what pot?

What are you talking about?

Peace

Just a late observation.

If you work at the pro level, you know that a coach (a guy who actually coaches a position) never argues a play. The manager/skipper takes care of that business. You call skippy "coach" and your face will be full of Levi before you can blink an eye. Likewise, the umpire isn't any particular color(blue, black, navy, red, cream, dazzle, etc. He puts his shoes, socks, pants, etc on the same way and happens to have a name. So, if the only way you are going to show respect for someone is to preface their name with coach or mr, you're not showing them much respect at all.

However, we aren't working the pro level and most of the coaches & umpires at the lower levels don't understand the customes of the real "Professionals." Plus, I can't read booger holler high's roster on the internet to learn the names of the guys I'm going to be dealing with. With that said, if I don't know a coaches name, I may call him coach or skip but make no mistake about it, he will NOT tell me what I CAN or CAN'T call him because there are a lot of things I CAN and WON'T call him. I don't like being called blue. I am a person and want to be treated like one but I understand that they may not know my name as well. Thus, I'm not going to tell a coach or player what to call me. I may say "You can call me Mark." I'm darn sure not going to say "You call me MR. Chapman." We're all adults. Even the teens are young adults. There are more ways to show respect than how one address anothers name.

Addressing the Pitchers Plate: What's wrong with "Hey Mark (or ump) we can't tell if the pitchers on the rubber. Would it be a problem to dust it off a bit?" Give him the opportunity to say sure I'll take care of it, go right ahead, or I'll let you know when he's not on the rubber.


As far as the comment about the call: What is being accomlished? I get tired of coaches coming out and saying no he was safe. Makes me want to say "Oh, well what do you need me here for?" I tell coaches in the pregame if they have a question about a call to request time and come ask. Notice I said ask. When a coach approaches me respectfully he gets treated respectfully. Such as:

Coach: "No Mark, that's wrong!!!"
Me: "Sit down!!! We're not talking judgement!!!"
or
Coach: "Mark, what did you have there???"
Me: "This is how I saw it...!!!"
He may still disagree with the outcome but there is no humanly way possible that he can argue what I saw and if I need to, I'll remind him of that!

I can be as big of a red __S as anyone if you put me in that position and I can be the most pleasant person around if you'll let me. Guess which one works out best for everyone involved???

As far as asst coaches go, I'll listen to them depending on the situation. If it's something that needs to be deferred to the head coach, I'll let him know. However, if I do take the time to give an explanation to an asst and the head guy comes out after the discussion, he gets to do an about face and gets nothing. If he says "I'm the head coach and you have to talk to me", I say "You had no business letting the asst do your work for you. He will be more than glad to explain to you what I told him."

It just takes one warning and don't forget that warnings come in a varity of forms. They don't have to be notarized.

I think there are a lot of officials in this thread that seem to be EAGER to eject a coach instead of run the game. I'm not advocating listening to constant barbs from an assistant coach. But if you're so sensitive that you get offended by a coach (or player for that matter) asking you to clean the rubber, you need to step it back a bit.

And to be honest, if I, as official, have offended an assistant coach by being familiar with him (i.e. using his first name), and he has the guts to ask me to call him coach, my response would likely be: "Sorry coach, I'll call you that going forward, but since you're an assistant coach, I shouldn't have to call you anything for the rest of the game." That should be warning enough.

On the other hand, the other piece of this incident - assistant coach questioning a call that had already been discussed.... GONE.

What does anyone that wants a standard of behavior, have to do with being EAGER to eject someone? When we are doing our job, we are suppose to treat coaches and players with respect. Telling me to clean up something that is not in my job discription, is not a way to show respect. I do not think it would be respectful to tell a coach to "sit down and shut up," and if an umpire said that I would expect a coach to be upset as well.

For the record I have ejected one Assistant Coach, which happen to be last year. And that was because he had the nearve to come all the way from his dugout position to home plate to argue a call. And it was his second incident that game after I had warned this coach for other comments. If I was so EAGAR to dump a coach, I would have don it the first time he made comments in that game. And I definitely last week would have had at least two ejections, for assistants that do not seem to know their place on a baseball field. This is not an issue of eagarness, it is an issue of what an Assistant can and cannot do. And it is not our job to listen to all the assistants after we have discussed a play with a Head Coach.

Peace