I am the home plate umpire with a runner on second base (there were other runners, but not relevant to this story). The pitcher pitches a strike down the middle, but the catcher immediately throws the ball to second base to pick off the runner. Now the base umpire is in the middle of the field when this happens and basically falls asleep and does not look at the pick off attempt. The throw clearly beats the runner by a couple of steps. The fielder appears to clearly tag the runner. The base umpire, my partner calls the runner safe. He does not ask for help, he acts like he blew the call, but does not admit he blew the call to me or the coach that is going ape sh!t!! The coach wants me to give help, but I am not helping without being asked.

What would you do?

Would you give your opinion?

Would you let it go?

Peace

What would I do?

I'd get ready for the next pitch....

Hugo:

What would I do?

Whell in this case, the call is left to the base umpire and I would talk to him/her about it in the post-game. I wouldn't talk between innings about it since, it gives the impression that you knew the call was wrong. I would wait a couple of innings when the crowd dies down *(even though they never do) and talk to him about it. However, I would ask him what he saw and then talked about it.

Hey, check out Rule 9.04(b), I think it will help for the future.
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/runner_7.jsp

"He does not ask for help, he acts like he blew the call, but does not admit he blew the call to me or the coach that is going ape sh!t!!". Enough said, he is accepting responsibilty for his call, and I support my partner. If he asks me after the game I tell him I saw a different result. It's a judgement call, not a rules issue.

Hmmmm,
 

I think there is a bigger question here:

When you see your partner "blow" a call what makes what YOU see correct?

Let's use the McClellen call in last years playoffs:

Tim said,

"I saw the ball hit the foul pole so the ball had to be fair!"

Now in retrospect we know the ball never hit the foul pole. Tim called what he honestly "thought" he saw but it was incorrect. The RF umpire probably had the correct call.

Now fast forward to Rut's situation:

Even his partner's body language lead eveyone to believe that the call was missed but it is only an issue that can be discussed "post" play.

I like PAT THE REF's & DG's answer . . . let it go until AFTER the game. Since I seldom (actually never) talk (like between innings, dude) with my partner during a game it is just a time where a calling (or non-calling in this case) umpire lives with his own end of the stick.

This is what makes umpiring interesting.

Tee

This was a HS game, not really concerned with OBR rules in this situation, just want to know how others would handle this. And this is not a rules situation as much as a game management situation.

Peace

Re: Hmmmm,
 

As far as game management, we have to just keep the assistant coaches off the field, and if necessary
we can move toward the area to help get the coach
that might be complaining off the field.

If its a veteran umpire, then I'm leaving him to explain his call (maybe will wake him up for further calls in the game).

If he's a newbie I probably will try to get the coach off the field ASAP since i don't need the young umpires head screwed up for the rest of the game.

Then we can talk about things after the game.

The quicker we can get the game started the better for everyone involved.

Thanks
David

I agree if the other official is bent solid on not admitting his mistake, let him take the heat, but be nearby to try and keep the fire from going out of control.

During a college game several years ago R1 was sliding into second on a routine force play. EVERYONE, including my kids at home, could see the the second baseman clearly drop the ball on the catch and pick it up after R1 slid into the bag. Well that everyone did not include my partner that was screened by another fielder. What he seen was the ball being thrown to 2nd, and about a second and a half latter, the fielder walking off the bag with the ball in his hand.

I called time and immediately headed off the coach and asked my partner if he had seen the 2nd baseman drop the ball. He asked if there was possesion during the tag of the base by the runner and I stated NO. He then changed his call to safe. The other coach started to come out and I told him to go back to the dugout because the correct call was made on the field. Game went on smoothly from there.

Not that it is going to change anyone's answer....
 

but there was something I left out of the discussion. The coach came running out of the dugout and complained about the call immediately. I did not stop him in doing so. I did do what I normally do and come to the area of the discussion. I did not say a word at that discussion, but I was also about 5 to 10 feet away. Then my partner says to me, "do you have anything to offer?" I started to say that "I was too far away..." but then stopped myself and said, "NO." I will admit that I was in a bit of shock, because my partner just dogged the play and was clearly not looking to even know if there was a throw, tag or anything. Then the coach gets upset because he wants to to make a call, which then (this was my fault for saying anything when asked) he wanted me to "overrule" my partner. I told him that, "coach, it is my partner's call and I am not in position to see what happen." Then I quickly started walking back to my position behind the plate and the coach followed me. I let him vent for a couple of seconds more and told him to "go back to the dugout area." He did and the rest of the game went on without a hitch. But I was in such shock, I admit it took me a couple of seconds to get myself together.

Of course there are calls where I think my partner blew it, but not in this way. It was like he did not even want to watch the play and it took him a couple of seconds after the throw was made to second base, for him to realize that there was even a play made at all. I know we all fall asleep at times, but not like that.

Comments.

Peace

When I gave the rule quote, my intention was not to show that rules would solve the problem.
What I was trying to show was that I think that a discussion between umpires would have appropriate in this situation and, since what you've said is that your partner was out of position, he should, at that point, admit to you that he didn't see the play and defer to you.
If you meet with him, and him alone, and he still won't admit the mistake, the call would stand. I would still discuss it further after the game.

That rule is not appropriate for the game I was doing.
 

I understand, but also understand that this is not a game under those rules. And if I did something that this umpire and myself are not familiar with, that can cause even more problems in my opinion. Now if there was a FED Rule (which I am not aware of how to specifically to handle this), that would be another thing. But I cannot explain to a coach, "coach the pro rules say to do this....." without opening a whole can of worms that I do not want to be opened. And I would feel the same way if I was doing a college game as well. Now if I am doing a game with OBR rules, then I have no problem with that remedy. But it would be improper to use procedures outside of the level that you are currently working at that time.

Just an opinion on that specific conversation.

Peace

Well, I don't see the relevance of what rules the games is played under.
Basic umpiring ethics require that you call the game and put forth best effort to call it correctly.
If you clearly saw the call made by your partner was wrong, you have an obligation as an official of the game to discuss with him at that time. If this were a regional or state tournement and team B lost because of the bad call that was not discussed between the officials, I think you'd have bigger concerns than whether or not the FED rules specifically state you should discuss it.
Use your common sense when your umping a game...a bad call should be addressed immediately. I'm not saying the call should change, only that you let what you saw as a bad call stand, and did nothing.
FYI I found the same wording in several rule books (i.e., NCAA (Rule 3 Sect. 6(h)), IBAF (Rule 9.04(3(b(c))))), so I'm sure that it applys in some way to yours too.

Hope this helps!

Re: Not that it is going to change anyone's answer....
 

Jeff,

Well, the comment about having something to offer was an opportunity. At that point, I would grab my partner and have a little 1-1 conversation away from the coaches. Talk about the play, come to an agreement, and let him announce the decision. It's his call to change, no matter how bad the call may be.

I've seen partners kick calls. My response is usually, "Hmmmm. Interesting." If my partner wants input, he knows where to find me.

I don't usually move towards an argument/discussion unless I sense an ejection coming. I will make sure that no players or assistants get involved and outnumber my partner, but that's about it. After ejection, I pick-and-roll and get the coach out of there.

--Rich

Re: Re: Not that it is going to change anyone's answer....
 

I only was at the discussion, because it was obvious that the coach was not letting the issue go. I wanted to move the game along. Maybe that was not the right thing to do, but the coach was making a huge issue out of my involvement in the call. I do that often and never had had any problem with this in the past. And I usually discuss this in the pregame with my partner. And we discussed this before the game and he had not objection. But that is why I always discuss this, so that we can be on the same page when hell breaks loose.

Peace

Gumbypire,

Which rule are you basing your statement on in 9.04? 9.04c ?

How many games have you umpired? Rut has probably taken more barbs in a single thread they you have umpired games.

Since your such a rules zealot, why are you even letting the coach come out and discuss this?
9.02
(a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

Now, in your world we should stop then before the utter the second word or take the second step from their position or at least as soon as it's apparent that they are arguing judgement. Custom and practice dictates otherwise in our sport.

If I'm misinterpreting your written word as it's possible on the board, then I apologize. If I'm not I can't believe that you refuse the accept a simple ruling some of the vets here.

Bob

Bob -
Just trying to point out that a situation like this should be discussed. I'm not saying anyone is not handling this correctly, just sharing how I would try to handle it.
I quoted the rule to show that it was allowed under the rules for an umpire to meet immediately after the play and reverse the call if necessary.
I'm not really a rules zealot as you claim, but someone who does my very best to try to make the right call, even if it needs to be discussed and reversed. Of course I've made many, many mistakes, and I have not always handled them correctly, but I try to improve everyday.

The original post is entitled "What would you do?", so I'm sharing what I would do!

OK, I'll buy that. Maybe I misinterpreted your quote for you being a rule zealot.

In the interest of spirited debate, which part of the rule are you quoting to support the way you'd handle this play?

Bob

No problem with that, and I should have made it clear what level this was. I am not concerned with OBR rules when I really do not do OBR games.

Peace

I mistyped my original quote. I guess I was referring to 9.04(c).
Please note however, this is not my basis for suggesting that we meet immediately, this is only a quote to show that the rules DO allow such a meeting.

That is the rule I thought you were looking at. What the rule means by two umpires making different decisions is both umpires making a call. Then they must get together. In the play involved this didn't happen. JR had a different opinion or judgment but not a different call.

JR also did correctly by FED rule 10-1-4. I agree w/ the way he handled it as well OBR or FED. One thing I might have done different was once I was asked I may have taken the umpire aside away from the coach and had a discussion w/ him. I'm not sure though, after being hung out to dry like that if I would have done anything differently. Post game would be interesting to say the least.

Bob

Bob;
I don't understand why any umpire would not be interested in making the correct call on the spot? If I see it differently than my partner, his body language, etc. indicates he knows he was not in position, so-on, I would talk to him then....give him a chance to reverse his decision after our meeting.

My priority on the field is calling the plays, and trying to get them correct. Rule or no rule, I don't think the officials are PROHIBITED from meeting at anytime they want (provide ball is dead of couse) and discussing a play. If my partner has as much interest in making the right call as I do, he'll take that opportunity to reverse himself.

I don't think the anyone was purposefully letting a bad call go, I just think more could have been done. I absolutely agree with the post that says when the partner asked if he saw anything, he would have taken him away from coach then. I think this is the right thing to do.

Because it was his call and he was sticking to it. If he wanted help, he could have asked. But condidering the over all attitude of this individual, it was not my place to help. The ball was not dropped or obviously not at that base, there was an attempted tag. It is not our job to make a call for our partner. If we use your logic, he could have come to me and told me that a pitch I called a strike was a ball. Or that when I ruled swing to then have him come to me and tell me immediately that he did not swing. There are some things umpires are just going to have to live with. And that was something I would rather live with and not opening another can of worms. Because if I make that call for him, then the coach is going to want that all day long. I would rather live with a couple of bad calls based on judgment than have every judgment call expected to be changed. And this is what the FED rule says to do. So the OBR rule does not apply here.

Peace

Consider the following materials:

FED: 10-1-4 "No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another
umpire’s decision unless asked by the one making it."

From the MLB Umpires manual:
(2) Official Baseball Rule 9.02(c) states, "No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere
with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it." Therefore,
except in special situations such as those referred to below, the umpire making the call must
be the one to seek assistance of a partner.
...........
Plays such as the following lend themselves to the philosophy described above:
* Deciding whether a fly ball that left the playing field was fair or foul.
* Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground-rule double.
* Cases where a foul tip is dropped by the catcher, causing it to become a foul ball.
* Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because a ball is dropped or juggled after
making a tag or force.
* Spectator interference plays.
* Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

MLB has set a precedent for getting crews together to get calls right and they wouldn't have under this call either unless the BU asked for help.

Bob

ALL UNDERSTOOD!!!

I think I am critisizing the partner rather than J.

He should have the ethics and confidence to admit his mistake.

I don't think you did anything I wouldn't have done ... right up to the point where your partner asked for help. At that point, I'd have taken partner out of earshot of the coaches and ask him what he saw. If he admits to have not seen part of the play and asks, I'd tell him what I saw. At the end of the short conversation, it's partner's call to make and I back him either way.