Malicious contact after scoring

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Seems like we have had this discussion before but... one more time...

Reading situation 8.4.2 Situation Y
The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b) two outs. B4 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first base side. R1 seeing F2 ready to make a play on B4 at first base, touches home plate (SCORES) and maliciously crashes into F2. RULING: (a)Since this is a force-play situation, R1 and B4 are declared out and no one scores. R1 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R1 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

Rule 3-3-1 n says A player who initiates malicious contact shall be ejected from the game.

Rule 8-4-2 e says the runner is out when he initiates malicious contact.

My question is, what allows me to negate an already scored run? Is there another rule I am missing or is it just this case play? Someone refresh my memory. Thanks

[bluezebra]

I have the 2003 books. Read CASE 8.4.2 SITUATION V, and 8.4.2 COMMENT.

TWO OUTS.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Seems like we have had this discussion before but... one more time...

Reading situation 8.4.2 Situation Y
The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b) two outs. B4 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first base side. R1 seeing F2 ready to make a play on B4 at first base, touches home plate (SCORES) and maliciously crashes into F2. RULING: (a)Since this is a force-play situation, R1 and B4 are declared out and no one scores. R1 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R1 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

Rule 3-3-1 n says A player who initiates malicious contact shall be ejected from the game.

Rule 8-4-2 e says the runner is out when he initiates malicious contact.

My question is, what allows me to negate an already scored run? Is there another rule I am missing or is it just this case play? Someone refresh my memory. Thanks

The "out" is for the FPSR violation, not for the malicious contact.

IF we had the same play but with no R2, then the run would score.

see 8-4-2b Penalty

[MPC]

FPSR still applies after the score?

This brings up another question that hs coaches ask all of the time. R2 rounding 3rd and steaming toward home for the score. Throw from anywhere and F2 is 3-4' up 3rd baseline to take the throw. Now, F2 has every opportunity to be a step or two in or out of fair territory but he chooses to block the baseline. R2 has nowhere to go. If he goes around F2 on the foul side he could miss the plate. If he goes around on the fair side he could interfere with the throw or miss the plate. If he slides he'll never make it to the plate. I understand that in Fed it is the runners responsiblity to avoid contact but if there is a collision there, what do we have. I hate to reward F2 for blocking the plate on a play that he may or may not make a clean catch and tag when R2 trucks him because R2 had nowhere to go. One could make a case for obstruction. If R2 intended to plow F2 then that's a different story but if it's just a collision do we still have an out and an ejection in FED?
Thoughts?

[Cubbies87]

As you said MPC, it is the runner's responsibility to avoid the contact. The coaches and players should know the rules. If R2 initiates a collision, it is his fault and has to be penalized. However, if he avoids F2, and doesn't make it to the plate, you have obstruction to deal with and the runner should be awarded accordingly.

[MPC]

The next question is going to be; "Where is my catcher allowed to be while in the act of fielding the ball? He can't help it if the ball takes him up the line. He can't just let it go to stay out of the runners way."

[GarthB]

Originally posted by MPC
The next question is going to be; "Where is my catcher allowed to be while in the act of fielding the ball? He can't help it if the ball takes him up the line. He can't just let it go to stay out of the runners way."

There is a big difference between the throw taking him up the line and camping out in the line waiting for the throw.

This doesn't have to be that hard.

[MPC]

Originally posted by GarthB
[QUOTE
There is a big difference between the throw taking him up the line and camping out in the line waiting for the throw.

This doesn't have to be that hard.

Okay mr. guru, what would you say if contact takes him up the line and a collision is unavoidable? Can you have "Nothing" in Fed when there is a train wreck?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by MPC

Okay mr. guru, what would you say if contact takes him up the line and a collision is unavoidable? Can you have "Nothing" in Fed when there is a train wreck?

Yes -- you can have this "train wreck" under all codes (excepting, perhaps, some local variation) at all levels.

I agree with Garth -- it doesn't have to be this hard.

Also, previously you asked, "FPSR applies after the score?" Again, the answer is Yes. That's the point of the case play.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Yes -- you can have this "train wreck" under all codes (excepting, perhaps, some local variation) at all levels.

I agree with Garth -- it doesn't have to be this hard.

Also, previously you asked, "FPSR applies after the score?" Again, the answer is Yes. That's the point of the case play.

Thank you, Bob. You saved me a lot of time on a busy morning. I agree completely.

Mr. Guru

[jicecone]

"Where is my catcher allowed to be while in the act of fielding the ball? He can't help it if the ball takes him up the line. He can't just let it go to stay out of the runners way."

Real simple, Coach, your catcher can field the ball and stand wherever he feels like. Im just letting you know that if he obstructs the runner, I WILL award him the base. Oh, and next year if your catcher plays college ball, tell him it gets worse, he better have possession of the ball before he even thinks of being there. Have a nice day.

[MPC]

Good work men!!! And thank you! Thank you very much!!!

[MPC]

Agree, it shouldn't be that hard. Neither should giving a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. However, is explaining this situation to the coaches ever easy??? Seems like first thing the coach says is "Had a play last night where there was a crash and my was called out, ejected, obstructed..." whatever. I usually give it the "Well, I'd have to see the play and may have to be able to read intent as well as several other items." They only want to hear what they think is correct and they never know or want to agree.

Again, thanks for not hesitating about helping out a fellow umpire.

Grasshopper

[Gre144]

According to 8-3-1-n penalty you would count the score since R1 has already scored.

Greg

[David B]

Originally posted by MPC
They only want to hear what they think is correct and they never know or want to agree.


Grasshopper

That's why we have umpires at the game. And you are right, when the umpire has to make a good gutsy call, one of the coaches is always going to be in disagreement.

But, if the call is made correctly and by the rules, the coach has nothing to complain about.

If the umpire isn't in his rule book and makes the wrong call, ... "that's another thread"

Thanks
DAvid