balk or not?

[steveo]

ok...i've heard to sides of this...tell me what you think.

R1 count and outs dont matter.

Right handed Pitcher is in the stretch, while recieving his sign he turns his shoulders to look at R1. Is this a balk? I'm pretty sure in high school it is, but what about OBR. I've heard both sides from coaches...that the pitcher can do anything until he becomes set, and i've heard that they can not turn their shoulders while engaged on the rubber.

Thanks.

[ozzy6900]

Yes, in FED, it is a balk if the RHP turns his shoulder to 1st base. In OBR he is okay as long as he does it slowly. As a note, FED umpires seem to be accepting a slight turn of the shoulder to 1st. If you think about it, there is no deception to the runner if there is a slight turn of the shoulder. Many of us have wondered for years why a HS player is restricted and an older more seasoned MLB player is not.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by steveo
ok...i've heard to sides of this...tell me what you think.

R1 count and outs dont matter.

Right handed Pitcher is in the stretch, while recieving his sign he turns his shoulders to look at R1. Is this a balk? I'm pretty sure in high school it is, but what about OBR. I've heard both sides from coaches...that the pitcher can do anything until he becomes set, and i've heard that they can not turn their shoulders while engaged on the rubber.

Thanks.

OBR says nothing about "turning the shoulders". It's a balk to feint a throw to first -- whether it's before the stretch or after.

As a practical matter, more movement is allowed before the stretch (there's less deceit, the runner typically isn't going anywhere anyway) than after.

[umpyre007]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
Yes, in FED, it is a balk if the RHP turns his shoulder to 1st base. In OBR he is okay as long as he does it slowly. As a note, FED umpires seem to be accepting a slight turn of the shoulder to 1st. If you think about it, there is no deception to the runner if there is a slight turn of the shoulder. Many of us have wondered for years why a HS player is restricted and an older more seasoned MLB player is not.

In our area the "official HS instructions" are to NOT call the shoulder turn if it is slight prior to coming set. This has been worked out between the coaches and the association. Then the restrictions get tougher after the pitcher has become set, just like in OBR based games.

U007

[JJ]

In our area the "official HS instructions" are to NOT call the shoulder turn if it is slight prior to coming set. This has been worked out between the coaches and the association. Then the restrictions get tougher after the pitcher has become set, just like in OBR based games.

U007

If umpires in your area allow the pitcher to turn his shoulder, what happens when a team from your area advances OUT of your area in the state tournament?

[GarthB]

The shoulder turn is specifically listed as a balk in FED. There is no mention of shoulder turn in OBR. What is discussed is a "feint". One has to decide if the shoulder turn resembled a feint or not. Remember also that pitching regulations come into effect at different times under the two codes.

I believe umpires do a disservice to the players when they do not enforce the rules during the regular season that are enforced at play-off time. I've seen coaches come home from play-offs just steaming because their pitchers got nailed for balks that weren't enforced at the local level.

[MPC]

We have a few P's in our area that make that slight turn. My interpretation is that if it is not a motion naturally associated with a pick-off or pitching motion, I'll let it go. The first time he continues over to first with a throw, it's a balk the rest of the day. It may not be the best approach but our association tends to let that slight turn go. I'll give in with that approach until the player uses to his advantage to deceive the runner.

[jicecone]

I think a few here should read the article by Jon Bible, in this months "Referee", "Doing whats Right for the Right Reasons".

I dont like all the rules in the book either but where does it stop.

[Rich]

Originally posted by jicecone
I think a few here should read the article by Jon Bible, in this months "Referee", "Doing whats Right for the Right Reasons".

I dont like all the rules in the book either but where does it stop.

The article was interesting considering Bible publicly advocated working in B with R3 only on another forum a few seasons ago even though no mechanics manual advocates it.

He must have had a change of heart.

[cowbyfan1]

Varsity I balk the turn of the shoulders set or not. JV I warn the kid and then balk him. If he turns the shoulders as he is going to the set position I let it go because there is nothing that says he has to come set the same way everytime.

[David B]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Varsity I balk the turn of the shoulders set or not. JV I warn the kid and then balk him. If he turns the shoulders as he is going to the set position I let it go because there is nothing that says he has to come set the same way everytime.

I'm sure you are talking FED here because a turn of the shoulders in OBR is not listed as a balk.

Just to clarify.

In our area, we will balk the shoulder turn, but most of the time we will give the kid a warning on the first violation unless he actually does deceive the runner and get an out on the play.

Most of the kids simply haven't been taught. Kid the other night turned, and when I said something to him, he asked "what do you mean?"

The kid is only a soph. but still coaches don't take time to teach the rule differences.

Thanks
David

[MPC]

OBR does not specifically mention a turn of the shoulders but according to what we were taught at umpire school, the turn of the shoulders is certainly a motion associated with a pick off move. I've never witnessed a right handed P throw to 1st without turning his shoulder. So from what I interpret and have been taught, it is a balk in OBR. Now, how they actually handle it at the MLB level is a different story but they were real clear in stating that the shoulder turn is a balk.

[Rich]

Originally posted by MPC
OBR does not specifically mention a turn of the shoulders but according to what we were taught at umpire school, the turn of the shoulders is certainly a motion associated with a pick off move. I've never witnessed a right handed P throw to 1st without turning his shoulder. So from what I interpret and have been taught, it is a balk in OBR. Now, how they actually handle it at the MLB level is a different story but they were real clear in stating that the shoulder turn is a balk.

After coming set.

The difference is that in FED you cannot turn your shoulders at ANY TIME after taking the pitcher's plate in the set position.

--Rich

[GarthB]

Originally posted by MPC
OBR does not specifically mention a turn of the shoulders but according to what we were taught at umpire school, the turn of the shoulders is certainly a motion associated with a pick off move. I've never witnessed a right handed P throw to 1st without turning his shoulder. So from what I interpret and have been taught, it is a balk in OBR. Now, how they actually handle it at the MLB level is a different story but they were real clear in stating that the shoulder turn is a balk.

Yes, it would be difficult for a RHP to throw to first without turning the shoulder, however, there is still a difference between FED and OBR.

In FED the shoulder turn itself is specifically a balk. In OBR the shoulder turn must, in the judgment of the umpire, be a feint.

In practice most umpires, once out of pro school, will use their judgment and call a balk on a quick shoulder turn, or flinch even, because it looks like the beginning of a move to first; however, they will not call a balk when the shoulder turns slowly as part of the head turn to check the runner.

[TxUmp]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

After coming set.

The difference is that in FED you cannot turn your shoulders at ANY TIME after taking the pitcher's plate in the set position.

--Rich [/B]

Rich - I'm sure you meant that the pitcher cannot turn his shoulders UNLESS IT IS PART OF A PICKOFF ATTEMPT.