3 man Crews - Would you work for less

[PeteBooth]

Most of us work the 2 man system, but there has been talk at least in my area concerning 3 man crews at the varsity level. The problem: the FEES would be split into thirds as opposed to halves.

My question to you is - Would you be willing to work a 3 man system and getting less money? The reason I ask is that for most of us, the money we get umpiring is supplemental income. We have our regular jobs and umpire "on the side" if you will. While money shouldn't be the only "driving force" as to why we umpire, the FEES come in handy.

The FEES assist us with expenses to and from games / cost for attending clinics, dues for our particular HS association, proper clothing and upgrading our equipment. While a 3 man crew helps, is it really necessary?
Can you honestly say that a team won or lost because there were only 2 of you as opposed to 3?

Yes there are those plays, that having a 3 man crew would be beneficial, but IMO out of all the games we umpire would it have really made a difference? Maybe at the collegiate level where you have 2 Top Notch Teams it would matter, but not in most of the games I umpire in.

In your opinion, would the umpire pool be diminished as a result in decreased FEES? Would you personally be willing to umpire for less money as a result of 3 man crews?

Pete Booth

[bob jenkins]

If having three officials results in a "better" game, then the total pay should go up. It may not need go up 50%, though (the game may not be 50% "better"). In addition, the third official (and all officials) will have travel expenses that need to be covered (this may vary by state, depending on how travel is paid).

I'd guess that a total increase of about 25% - 30% is appropriate. So, if each official was getting $50 (including travel, or no travel paid separately) for two officials ($100 total), then each official would get about $42 - $43 for three officials ($125 - $130 total).

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins
[B]If having three officials results in a "better" game, then the total pay should go up. It may not need go up 50%, though (the game may not be 50% "better"). In addition, the third official (and all officials) will have travel expenses that need to be covered (this may vary by state, depending on how travel is paid).

Bob I do not know how the collegiate budgets work (perhaps Papa C can respond), but I do know how the HS budgets work, since I am both a parent of children attending HS and also an official.

Increase FEES for officials is not a priority item on the list of most HS budgets. As it stands now, it's like "pulling teeth" to get any kind of an increase in FEES.

I agree with your assessment that if 3 man crews become the norm, then the FEES should go up, but in reality will they?
I guess it all depends on where your from and how much money is available in the budget.

The main point of my thread was this: In most games you umpire, would it really have been different if there were 3 of you as opposed to 2? I am not talking about making the game "easier" but would it really have been "better".

As it stands now, the only time 3 man crews are used is during Tournament Play where there is a different FEE structure.

Pete Booth

[Tim C]

In Oregon, baseball is considered a non-revenue sport. i.e. There are no admission fees charged to fans.

We deal with the 3 man question nearly every year. As soon as playoffs are concerned we get calls at once from almost all sized schools wanting three man crews (i.e. at the playoff level they charge admission therefore pay for three)

I got my start by working as a "free" third man in Regular season games. I asked the assignor and I asked the crew . . . never was the offer refused.

When Oregon goes to three man we do take a cut in the individual fee. There is no logic to this it is just the way it seems to work. We take about an average of $4.00 cut for each of the two man crew and add the third at the slightly lower fee.

We still ONLY receive travel for ONE car.

Salem (OR) went to three man crews in basketball. They worked at a reduced rate for two seasons . . . the leagues then added in the third man at full price.

The end result is:

Portland (OR) would not have enough qualified umpires to go to three man crews. The cost would be a headache for some schools (to the point that they CLAIM they would drop baseball as a sport)and finally it work mean more training for the people who are already stretched thin with current programs.

[GarthB]

In the Spokane area five leagues debated this issue and the one man "crew" at JV games. They chose to add a second umpire at all JV games this year and then add the third umpire at varsity games in 2002.

All tournaments and play-offs are handled by three man crews until the state semis and finals, which are handled by four man crews.

Last summer the local American Legion folks added the third umpire for AA and AAA play. Single A is still two man.

PONY utilizes two man until play-off and tournament time, and then switches to three man.

So far we haven't had to take a hit financially for the third man in Legion play or the added second man at JV.

When you consider that each school would only have to bear the added expense for the third man at home games, the increase is less than $400. Most coaches feel it is worthwhile. The problem here is the AD's who would rather spend that $400 on a week-end trip to watch the basketball finals in Seattle.

[Rog]

Heck, I might just consider a cut in regular rate fee; IF, they'd fix the dang fields and mounds......and make them into something that resembles a real ball field!

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Most of us work the 2 man system, but there has been talk at least in my area concerning 3 man crews at the varsity level. The problem: the FEES would be split into thirds as opposed to halves.

My question to you is - Would you be willing to work a 3 man system and getting less money? The reason I ask is that for most of us, the money we get umpiring is supplemental income. We have our regular jobs and umpire "on the side" if you will. While money shouldn't be the only "driving force" as to why we umpire, the FEES come in handy.

The FEES assist us with expenses to and from games / cost for attending clinics, dues for our particular HS association, proper clothing and upgrading our equipment. While a 3 man crew helps, is it really necessary?
Can you honestly say that a team won or lost because there were only 2 of you as opposed to 3?

Yes there are those plays, that having a 3 man crew would be beneficial, but IMO out of all the games we umpire would it have really made a difference? Maybe at the collegiate level where you have 2 Top Notch Teams it would matter, but not in most of the games I umpire in.

In your opinion, would the umpire pool be diminished as a result in decreased FEES? Would you personally be willing to umpire for less money as a result of 3 man crews?

Pete Booth

[Bfair]

I suspect most of us typically work 2 man crews throughout season. I've made comments in past that I question the value of 3 man crews in playoffs. You take umps who have learned to move well and work together in 2 man system and throw them into system that they are less familiar with. Many seem more worried about "are they in the right position" and "is that call mine?" than they do about concentrating on getting the call right. They are also making calls from different viewing angles than they have grown accustomed to. Sometimes those concerns offset the value gained with the 3rd official.

I suspect if you regularly worked 3 man crew these concerns would be gone. I suppose if they are going to reduce fees for umps if they go to 3 man crews, they should also reduce pay for coaches who get assistant coaches. Obviously won't happen, but proves the point.

To Tim C. of Oregon I offer the following regarding travel pay that has been accepted well in Texas. Our chapter has developed 'flat fee' mileage fees based from downtown of major local city to playing site. Although districts may pay slighlty more, they like the fact that they KNOW in advance what they will have to pay for mileage. It makes it much easier for them to budget. Both umps get mileage and if you are ABLE to carpool you come out further ahead. If you haven't tried that, you might want to discuss it with schools.

[chris s]

Originally posted by GarthB
In the Spokane area five leagues debated this issue and the one man "crew" at JV games. They chose to add a second umpire at all JV games this year and then add the third umpire at varsity games in 2002.

All tournaments and play-offs are handled by three man crews until the state semis and finals, which are handled by four man crews.

Last summer the local American Legion folks added the third umpire for AA and AAA play. Single A is still two man.

PONY utilizes two man until play-off and tournament time, and then switches to three man.

So far we haven't had to take a hit financially for the third man in Legion play or the added second man at JV.

When you consider that each school would only have to bear the added expense for the third man at home games, the increase is less than $400. Most coaches feel it is worthwhile. The problem here is the AD's who would rather spend that $400 on a week-end trip to watch the basketball finals in Seattle.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
Pony goes with a three-man in your area for tourneys? We will 3 man bronco/mustang section championship games, and 4 man PONY/colt/Palomino championship games, but only 2 man for elimination games. I like your field directors up there!