The Devil's Advocate

[sunfudblu]

With the winter month's upon us I'd like to get some feedback on some similar experiences you may have had on this or a similar subject.

I recently attended the Junior College National Volleyball Championships in Toledo, Ohio. My wife's team never made it to the final four and the team, including the parents of the players, wanted to blame the ref for them not getting there. So far this doesn't sound unusual and being an ump myself, I am usually flying solo when I find myself in the middle of "the officiating cost us the game" conversation.

The next morning at breakfast was when I found myself sitting with my wife and 2 parents discussing the ref's calls. I did admit that the ref did call a LOT of lift violations. He killed a lot of rallys and at times took the game away from the girls. At one time he even called a lift on a girl going up for a block!!

Anyway, the parents shifted the conversation to their daughter in high school and how the volleyball coach didn't really know how to coach in that their daughter never knew the difference until she joined a club team and realized that they actually ran plays on the court.

After hearing this I said, "So it's not only the officiating that can cost a team the game it can also be the coaching?" Well, needless to say that didn't go over too well.

Any similar experiences??

[GarthB]

Any similar experiences??


With what, putting my foot in my mouth? Sure.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by GarthB
Any similar experiences??


With what, putting my foot in my mouth? Sure.

Maybe it was experiences with "Stating the obvious."

Despite the reluctance on the part of parents I would say that it is a lot more prevalent that a coach costs a team the game than it is for an official to cost a team the game.

I'm sure that would have went over well with them!

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by sunfudblu
My wife's team...

Can I presume that you have not been married long? The reason I ask is the this is not a umpire/player question, this is a male/female question.

I betting the problem is not that you disagreed, it is the fact that you were all having a bonding moments. For the evening and much of the next morning, you were bonding with the others. Even here you are trying to keep one foot on that side of the fence, "the ref did call a LOT of lift violations." Whatsa matter? Scared your wife's gonna read this? (ha ha - just ribbin' you.)

And then, you mean nasty brute, you sat there eating breakfast with her and her parents, after all that bonding, and you said, "I'm not bonding with you anymore, I'm a loner and just want to point out it could be all your fault." (I don't care what you said, that's what they heard.)

Two choices next time:

(a)"Well you know, the ref had the better point of view and he is more experienced in judging lifting violations." and start saying this from the beginning and keep saying it.

- or -

(b)"Yeah, that official was terrible. They were the worst I've ever seen." and then stick with it.

The only problem, they will never believe you are in the (b) category again, they will always suspect that you're thinking (a). I hope you like cold cereal.

[cowbyfan1]

As the Seattle Seahawks said this past weekend, It was not the ref's fault we lost, even though they did not start the clock like they should have, It was our fault as we had a number of opportunities to win it and not make the ref's a part of the game.

Even if the ref was miscalling the lifting, the coach and players should have adjusted instead of letting it get under their skin..

I am quite such parents were screaming, adding to the players losing emotional control of themselves and thus really costing themselves the game.

Like in basketball with foul calls, or baseball with strike zone, or football with penelties, officials can and will dicate the pace or feel for a game, but it is up to the players and coaches to adjust to it. The team that does is usually the one to win.

[Jerry]

Officials never "cost" anyone a game. We might make erroneous calls every now and then, but it's up to the players to win or lose their own contest.

Doesn't a volleyball game take 15 points to win? And 2 out of 3 games? What happened to the other 14 points? Every single time the "losing" team had an opportunity to score a point, the referee killed the play? That's like saying, it's the official's fault that the coin was flipped "heads" when the "losing" Captain clearly said "tails". All we officials have control over is our interpretation of rules and what we choose to call; if we have control over who wins or who loses . . . it takes a whole lot more intensity on our part. And would probably cost the "winning" team a whole lot more money.

Jerry

[tasoump]

Officials never "cost" anyone a game. We might make erroneous calls every now and then, but it's up to the players to win or lose their own contest.

I have to disagree with this statement. I have called Little League, Babe Ruth, American Legion,High School, Junior College,and some semi-pro games in Texas for 15 years. I moved to Hawaii in 2001 and continued to call High School games. When I would show up at a game the coaches would say good a Haole. When asked why that was good they would respond you haven't lived your whole life in Hawaii and don't have the same ties to teams as local umps do,therefore Haole's tend to be impartial as all umps should be. As time went by I started seeing what the coaches were talking about. Case and point I was the base ump in a High School game in Hawaii. The visiting team was ahead 13-4 going into the bottom of the seventh. This is when the plate ump decided he wanted the home team to win because he got mad at the visiting team head coach. He quit calling strikes and walked the next 13 batters in a row. That was ten runs scored with no hits and no outs and home team wins 14-13. As the players were celebrating their victory I heard their coach tell them to shutup they did nothing to earn the victory, it was given to them. From my point of view pitchers were throwing strikes but the plate ump would not call them! I had never seen such a travesty in a game! I quit calling and will never call a game in Hawaii again!

[nine01c]

This is an extreme examle of "cheating." What Jerry meant (I think) refers to the more common games, where the umpires officiate FAIRLY and to the best of their ability.

Shame on ALL the adults who allowed that to happen to those HS kids in Hawaii.

[greymule]

Had I been the coach getting that hosing from the Hawaii ump who was obviously cheating, I would have pulled my team off the field as soon as I realized that the missed calls were deliberate. I would have pursued the matter as far as I could with the Fed or whatever body governed the game.

If I had been the BU, I would have reported the cheating to the governing body.

[bluezebra]

"Doesn't a volleyball game take 15 points to win? And 2 out of 3 games?"

You're living in the past. High school games go to 25 points, volley scoring, with a 2-point margin needed. And most states play 3-out-of-5 varsity matches. College games go to 30 points, volley scoring, with a 2-point margin needed. And play 3-out-of-5 matches.

Bob

[Jerry]

Bob,
Actually "Rally Scoring" (not "volley" scoring) is typically used for tournament play at the High School level . . . and for some regular season games for levels other than Varsity. "The past" is actually as recent as the current season. FED still uses 2 of 3 fifteen point games for varsity matches; with rally scoring optional. I don't do college, amateur (AAU) or adult volleyball, so I'm not familiar with their rules.

The point of my discussion remained the same; regardless of the rules employed. The officials don't "win" or "lose" contests. In the "Hawaii" story . . . the home team management was just as much at fault as was the unethical official.

Jerry

[bluezebra]

Jerry:

Thanks for the correction on Rally Scoring. I had a brain block, and couldn't think of the correct term.

In California, Rally Scoring is used. Varsity matches go 3/5. Lower levels, 2/3.

As for blaming officials: In 44 seasons, I never dropped a fly ball, overthrew a base, dropped a throw, or walked 10 batters, or struck out 5 times in a game. I also never dropped a pass, threw an interception, missed a tackle, missed a block, or fumbled. I never missed 9-out-of-10 free throws in a 2-point game.

And, I don't know of any official who has. I just love it when a coach/manager/parent tells you that you cost the kids a game. Especially when they lost by 10 runs or 35 points.

Bob

[tornado]

The scary thing is that they're serious when they say our call cost them a 10 run game.

Thay believe that ANYTHING is possible (except that their team isn't good enough).

They believe in things like fate and momentum and Steve Bartman instead of effort and results.

tornado

[GarthB]

Jim:

The belief that officiating does not win or lose games is based on a simple premise:

Even if a bad call allows the winning run or score in the final inning or seconds of a game, the teams had ample opportunities to win or lose throughout the game.

Dropped balls could have been caught, good pitches could have been swung at, missed tags could have been made, balks didn't have to happen and coaches could have utilized better strategy.

Teams have literally hundreds of opportunities to win or lose a game. One bad call by an official does not offset that fact.

That said, the obviously unethical umpire in the Hawaiian game went out of his way to have an impact on the game. While there's no accounting for that kind of behavior, even then he had to work hard and make numerous obvious bad calls to counter the will of the players.

Short of such intentional immoral behavior, officials do not decide contests.

And, to your question as to why officials are hired: primarily for knowlege of the rules and game mangagement and to gurantee equal treatment, good or bad, to both contestants.


[Edited by GarthB on Dec 7th, 2003 at 02:42 AM]

[jicecone]

"Bottom of the seventh, V-2, H-0 two outs, bases empty. Plate ump calls ball four on a two-strike cock shot to the batter. Next batter grounds to second, throw makes F3 stretch, but he stays on. BU says he didn't, runner safe. Next hitter hits a long, slicing fly over the fence, inches foul. PU says it was fair when it crossed the fence.

For those who believe that improper calls did not cost the visitors the game, especially since they have no opportunity to play over them, we will simply have to disagree.

The frequency of it is far rarer than players, coaches and fans would have us believe, but the proposition that poor officiating never costs teams victories is ludicrous."

OK OK I will agree that the use of "NEVER", is stretching the truth a tad bit. But I will garantee you that the precentage of times it happens are far, far fewer than the times a team affects its own outcome. And I will use your example to show you.

Mistake 1.
"Plate ump calls ball four on a two-strike cock shot to the batter." Why was that batter allowed to get on? Pitcher failed to do his job.

Mistake 2.
"Next batter grounds to second, throw makes F3 stretch." Why wasn't it a good throw to first? Second failed to do his job.

Mistake 3.
"Next hitter hits a long, slicing fly over the fence, inches foul." Sounds like another bad pitch to me.

Now lets add this up. Players 3 mistakes Ump 1, possibly two (in your opinion). And this, in reality, is how most all of the games commence. I know your comeback is going to be. "Hey nobody said the players are perfect, their human beings too." And thats MY POINT, thank you.