Here is a new one for you. The same umpire that I have had issues with all Season finally got to toss me.

I have a twelve year old on the mound and a 13 year old behing the plate. My catcher caught a borderline pitch. I asked the Catcher" where did you catch that". He didn't answer. My pitcher was struggling struggling a little, so I called time to talk to my pitcher. My catcher came up to me and said
" Coach, the umpire just told me that if I answer you when you ask me where the pitch was , that he won't call a strike for us the rest of the game". (to 13 year old kid!)

I asked the umpire if he said that, and he said that I don't need to be questioning "his authortiy". "I said, if I was questioning your authority I would of asking you where the pitch was. " Since i am trying to get my 12 year old pitcher to figure out where the strike zone was, I decided to ask my catcher, as to not offend you...

Any Comments

Here is my reply...somebody needed to throw the ump out for his behavior. Any umpire that works a game this way, does not need to be working any level of ball period. I do not care how good you are.

It is clear, cut, and dry that this umpire was out to make a point with you, and instead of doing that he made an ABSOLUTELY fool of himself, for conducting himself in that kind of a fashion.

I do not normally do this, but I will this time. Coach, did you give this umpire a piece of your mind before he tossed you out of the game?

You put your catcher in a very bad situation. By asking that question you're, in effect, arguing balls and strikes. Or, simply put, trying to show up the umpire in public. If the umpire calls "ball", you ask you're catcher "where was that pitch?", and your catcher replys "right down the middle" then what? If you need that information, request time and talk to your battery.

When that question comes up when I've got the plate, I'll tell the catcher if he wants his manager to stay in the game don't answer that. If the manager seems insistant, I'll have a private word with him. Now, if on a changer over a manager wants to know where his pitcher is missing I'll be glad to tell him. Just not a shouted demand from the dugout.

Should the umpire have said what he said? Probably not. But that doesn't excuse the first question.

Kyle

I told him that I couldn't belive that he said that, and I have very right to ask my player where he caught the pitch. He told me that if I asked my again, that I was gone. An inning later, I asked again , and he tossed me. i told him I plan to file a complaint, and that he is in the wrong league. He has no business threatening a 13 year old boy, for answering his coach. That was it. I left.

"When that question comes up when I've got the plate, I'll tell the catcher if he wants his manager to stay in the game don't answer that."

Sounds to me , that for you to say that puts the catcher in a bad situation too. If I have a problem with the way you are calling balls and strikes I will tell YOU. I won't use my thirteen year catcher as a pon. Again this is a "TRAINING LEAGUE." Why threaten kids man.

Asking a catcher is a not so subtle way of telling the umpire you don't like what he called.

His response was not professional. However, what is the kid supposed to say? He'd better not say that the pitch was a strike or he's arguing balls and strikes. If he says it was outside, what are you going to do with that information? Tell you pitcher not to throw outside?

Most of us experienced umpires have heard it all. 99.99% of the time the coach asks not to coach but rather to argue balls and strikes without directly talking to the umpire, knowing that arguing balls and strikes directly with the umpire will get him ejected.

BTW, the best umpire response to the question is "out of the strike zone."

Rich

Asking a catcher is a not so subtle way of telling the umpire you don't like what he called.

Guys I wasn't telling the umpire I didn't like what he called. That is the problem. Unless I address you, I am not talking to you, our about you. I am talking to my catcher. If the pitch is outside. Which it was, and my pitcher seems to be consistently throwing there, then I will ask my catch where the pitch was. If he says outside, then I will tell him to set up inside. I am teaching kids, how to play baseball. I could care less where the strike zone is, or what consider balls and strikes. Call em where you see them, try to be consitent, and My catcher, pitcher , and I can work on throwing strikes.
If you are secure in the way that you call a game, tah me asking my catcher in the 2nd inning should even face you. If I am tlling you to your face that "THAT PITCH WAS A STRIKE. That is a different story. If you have a problem come and talk to me, and I will explain that I wasn't questioning your call.

If you ask your catcher, from the dugout for all the world to hear, "where was THAT pitch?", trust me coach, you are arguing balls and strikes. We, as umpires, are trained to deal with managers who do this. Honest, first semester Umpire 101.

Yeah right, you were just talking(shouting) to your catcher. How 'bout if I shout to my base umpire "hey Larry, do believe how long that manager let his pitcher hang out there? I'd have pulled him five batters ago! What a bonehead." Remember, I'm not talking to you.

Here's what should have happened. You should have requested time. Once granted, talk to your catcher. If he has any questions on where his pitcher is missing have HIM ask the umpire. That way nobody gets showed up, and nobody goes to the parking lot. Easy.

So it was my fault and the umpire was justified in his actions

If a borderline pitch is called a ball, then you can figure which direction it needs to go.

Don't question your catcher about where he caught the ball.

Question him about where he's setting up.

If you asked once, then I'd say there is no problem. If you ask repeatedly, then you are questioning his calls. Either way, the ump was not justified in telling your catcher not to answer. He would be justified to tell you that you can not argue balls and strikes.

i love saying that. more often than not, that response puts an end to questioning balls and strikes through all methods of questioning.

First, I'm calling 'boloney'. You weren't asking because you wanted to know where the pitch was.

Second, I agree that the umpire could have definitely handled it better. If a coach is asking, "Where was that pitch?" and the cather is answer, "High", "Outside", etc. I don't have a problem. If he is answering "right down the middle" then we've got problems.

BTW, usually when the coach asks the catcher, I answer under my breath, just loud enough for the catcher to hear. Nine times out often he will echo my call, sometimes even if I add discriptors. I will say, "Way out side" and the catcher answers the coach, "Way out side". Coach, him usually don't ask no more.

As I'm typing this, I started thinking... in the future I will put "Say" on the front of my statement. Coach asks catch, "Where was that pitch?" I will quietly state to the catcher, "Say, 'Over his head.'" I got a dollar that says it will work.

Yes and no.

There are two issues here, your behavior and the umpire's behavior. If both were as you described, both were wrong.

Since you can't control anyone but yourself, let's work on yours.

Even if we are to believe you had absolutely no intention of questioning the umpire's call, if you are asking your catcher where the pitch was loud enough for the catcher to hear it, fans can hear it and at the very least you will appear to be showing up the umpire, or even worse, asking your catcher to show up the umpire.

Let's be honest there is nothing the catcher is going to tell you that will allow you do anything. Given that, you could have waited for the change of sides to talk with your catcher, privately. Instead, you chose, knowingly or not, to give the impression that you were challenging the umpire's calls. Bad form.

As I've tried to teach my kids, when you work on the person's behavior you can control, your own, you'll be suprised at the impact it has on the behavior of others.

Excellent point for all of us to remember!

Both the professions of umpiring and coaching belong in the same sport. The smoother all aspects of the game, the more enjoyable it is for everyone involved. From experience, coaches and officials learn the proper way to get the information they need.

As the coach has already seen, asking the catcher for an answer wasn't the best way to handle it. Much better if the coach had asked, "A bit outside, Blue?" Or even better would simply yell out to the catcher, "Hey, Johnnie . . . set up a tad to your left."

As a coach for a semi-pro team (in addition to my umpiring duties in other leagues), I've learned that game-time is NOT the time to try teaching, training or educating the players. It's better to chart the balls and strikes, take notes on situations where your team "booted it" and plan your next practices around what could have been improved upon. Your job during a game is to coach; not to teach.

As my father told me a long time ago . . . pick your battles wisely. Save your arguments for the really big play!

nail on the head
 

Jay R
I think you hit it right on the head. He warned me that was fine. Threatening my catcher was not. I have had several people give me suggestions in this thread. Here is one for umpires;
Not all coaches are out to publicly humiliate you. Umpiring is a very difficult job. Most of us understand that. You not only have to see something that happens in a split second, and be responsible for making a quick analysis, and judgement, but you have to be able to back up that judgement with individuals that are probably not going to agree with you anyway. I REALLY DO HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR WHAT YOU DO. Part of your job is dealing with managers that are passionate about the game, and there players. There ar eways that we as managers can deal with you, and visa versa. Just because that you have the final say, pleas edon't abuse that power. If you have a problem bring it up with the manager. If you think you are being shown up in public, talk to the manager, you might just find out that that is not the case.

For Mattinglyfan only:

Some of my absolute best allies in the sport now, were my worst enemies when I started officiating. Believe me . . . we've all "tippled a few" with the likes of Billy Martin, Mayo Smith, Mickey Mantle and Bob Eucher. The entire "sport" (players, coaches, umpires) were one gigantic fraternity at one time . . . and we all protected each other's butts.

Some of that may have changed over the years . . . but not a whole lot. The problems are more prevalent in amateur sports, and at the lower age brackets 11-14 .

Take my advice for what it's worth . . . teach your players and your coaches; respect for the game, for their equipment and for the officials. I will guarantee you . . . you'll win more games than you lose and your kids will have a whole lot more fun playing this GAME!!!!

Jerry

Jerry's reply is the best one yet. The coach's claim that he wasn't arguing balls and strikes when he asked his catcher where a pitch was is simply not credible. The advice given him in this thread is pretty much right on; the water is before the horse.

Mattinglyfan:

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter what you think your intent was. What matters is how it was perceived. Umpires are not mind readers and, no, they are not going to take the time to walk over and say, "Hey coach, this in my perception of what you are doing, would you like to take a few minutes and tell me why you don't agree?"

Perception is reality. If you don't want to be perceived as challening balls and strikes, then don't yell out to your catcher "where was that one?" It's that simple. No need to complicate it further. You can control the situation; you can't control how someone reacts to it.

perception
 

Go back and read the first thread. In quotes you will see what was said. This is abviously not going to make one bit of differnece to you. For the past week our practices consists of 45 minutes of work with the catchers. Focus(blocking and FRAMING). The fact that the umpire took it as an insult to his umpiring skills is understandable. It wasn't my intention, but from what I have heard it is not the intenetion that matters it is how it is percieved. This website really is great. The reason I come here is to be better, by learning. Jerry, thank you. Dave you ought not to be so quick in questioning someone's credibility.

Re: perception
 

1. You're wrong again. It matters to me.

2. Congratulations. Now you get it.

3. Yes, the umpire made a mistake, but now you can help prevent that mistake in the future.

Good job.

Garth
 

Your great man. I am just learning. I have been playing for over 20 years. I was never allowed to talk to Umpires... I do think that as much as I can learn to deal with umps, some of them could probably stand to learn a little more about how to deal with managers...

If I had a dollar for every time a coach has tried to use this line WHILE CLEARLY ARGUING balls and strikes, I'd be rich.

Wait a minute. I AM Rich.

There are probably some coaches out there that think that they can say ANYTHING as long as they say it to the player rather than the umpire.

"I know those are strikes, Billy, but the umpire sucks and isn't calling those strikes. HEY, I WAS TALKING TO MY PLAYER!!!! YOU CAN'T EJECT ME!!!"

Rich

Merry go round and round
 

yah were out to get you. I told you what I said, why I said it. I get the impression regardless of what the intent, reason, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT BALLS AND STRIKES." whether to the player, or the ump. Anything else you like to add, that might be helpful.

<i> Originally posted by Mattinglyfan </i>

<b> My catcher caught a borderline pitch. I asked the Catcher" where did you catch that". He didn't answer. My pitcher was struggling struggling a little, so I called time to talk to my pitcher. My catcher came up to me and said
" Coach, the umpire just told me that if I answer you when you ask me where the pitch was , that he won't call a strike for us the rest of the game". (to 13 year old kid!)

I asked the umpire if he said that, and he said that I don't need to be questioning "his authortiy". "I said, if I was questioning your authority I would of asking you where the pitch was. " Since i am trying to get my 12 year old pitcher to figure out where the strike zone was, I decided to ask my catcher, as to not offend you... </b>

You have received good responses and I will add this.

IMO, it sounds like there is more to the story <i> than meets the eye </i> It sounds like there is a "history" between you and this umpire which throws a different wrinkle on the scenario.

I think you know that when you said <b> "I asked the Catcher" where did you catch that" </b> would get the PU's attention. Also, everyone in the stands probably heard it as well which gives the impression that you are trying to show up the PU which although not mentioned is what you were trying to do based on your "history" with this umpire.

The PU was also wrong for talking to your catcher in the manner he did. If the PU indeed said <i> "I won't call a strike for us the rest of the game". </i> then he should be reported to the association but that still doesn't exuse the way you handled it.

It seems like you were "baiting" blue by the way you handled the situation and as mentioned there is probably more to this story than meets the eye.

Pete Booth

Re: Merry go round and round
 

Yes, one more thing.

You have an <b><i>excellent</i></b> talent for expressing your personality with your writing style. Just from the above quoted post, I can understand how your situation of asking one innocent question caused an umpire to make such a demand of your catcher.

Re: perception
 

Before I posted anything, I read the entire thread. In particular, I noted your statements:

"The same umpire that I have had issues with all Season finally got to toss me. "

"He told me that if I asked my again, that I was gone. An inning later, I asked again , and he tossed me."

The tone and manner in which you presented your case in this thread made your claim that you were not arguing the umpire's calls not credible. I'm delighted that you now claim to understand the consistent replies you've received and you'll use it to be a better coach in the future, but the fact remains you entered this thread with a chip on your shoulder that most of us have seen a hundred times.

One point that I think has been missed:

Why is this ump squeezing a 12 or 13 year old kid? Get out there, call strikes, get the batters to swing the bat. Unless this guy likes 3 1/2 hour games, it makes no sense to squeeze kids so young. Granted, sometimes coaches don't see or do step out of line and challenge pitches that were legitimate balls. However, this seems like a recurring theme with this guy. Needs to rethink his umping overall and maybe condsider trying another sport.

How do you know the umpire was squeezing the strike zone? You weren't sitting on the bench next to your Dad, Mattinglyfan, were you son?

Coach, you have the same problem that 99.99% of all coaches no matter what the sport is.

I have yet to meet a coach that will speak to a player or assistant coach about the officiating. The coach will speak loud enough for the offical to hear. The coach thinks that because he is "speaking" to his player or assistant coach he is not speaking to the official. The coach knows full well that his comments are directed toward the official and not toward his player or assistant coach.

My advice to you is to either have the intestinal fortitude to address the official directly and be prepared to take your medicine if the official gives it to you or do not say anything else.

I agree with the plethora of comments regarding Mattingly's behavior and the perception of it by others.

However, it's obvious this umpire holds a serious grudge. I can't imagine talking to a 13-year old that way, or putting the pressure of keeping their (in his eyes) "out-of-control" coach in check squarely on the shoulders of a child. This guy is out of line.

After the two previous encounters described on this board, if I were Blue, I'd have had a long talk with Mattingly about what's acceptable and what's not. Hopefully he would have received much of the enlightenment he's gotten from this thread a little earlier. If he still made the "Where was that pitch" comment to his catcher, I'd have called time, and spoke with the manager 1 last time. But I CERTAINLY wouldn't have used the kid as a crutch or put him in an awkward position between what to him should be 2 authority figures.

Keep the kids out of it.

Why doesn't the coach simply phrase his question to his catcher in a manner that won't be interpreted like he's questioning the umpire's judgement of the pitches like:

"Which way is he missing?"

I've got no problem saying that he's too low, etc, if asked.

Bluefoot:
And what if the kid replies, "He's not missing. It's right over the plate!"?

Jerry

The good catchers and coaches know how to get information on called "balls", where there might be a question as to whether it was low/outside/both. If it were simply "low" or simply "outside", F1 can be instructed to adjust accordingly. Most catchers with whom I deal, usually help me out . . . not the other way around. They'll quietly ask, "A little low, Blue?" or "Just missed the corner, Blue?"

Coaches would do well to learn that same technique.

If you're dealing with a 13 yr old you might get a comment or two but education is a good thing.

Once the kid understands that he and the umpire can work together then he's on the way to becoming a much better catcher.

One of the best HS catcher's last year in our area learned through the summer of his freshman year and has been a joy to work with the last three years.

His coach is very much respected and he loves to complain by saying "what was wrong with that one blue?"

This F2 was quick to comment "outside coach" or "low coach" even if it was borderline. Then he would say did I have it right Mr. Ump??? That's my kind of catcher.

The coach was satisfied and he just might get that pitch called later in the game.

Teach em when they're young.

Thanks
David

What's a "pon"?

Bob

"What's a "pon"?"

Come on Bob, you know. That's what they call adult movies in Boston.

I think it has something to do with Christmas... You know - It came a pon a midnight clear, or A Pon the rooftop, reindeer paws...
Or maybe it's just a storytelling word ... Once a pon a time.

I think it has more to do with the Academy Awards and Henry Fona.

"On Golen Pon".

You say if the pitch was outside, then you'd move your catcher inside.
So let me ask.....if it was low, would you have him stand up?......
If it was high, would you have your catcher lay down?......
That certainly seems to follow the same logic of your training.....

I agree with several of the others, but I will put it in my typical indiscreet words.......what a bunch of crapola.

You indicate you've had past problems with the official, brag about finally being ejected, and tell us how inappropriate the official's actions were. You've earned the credibility level that I don't know if I can believe anything you say regarding the incident. What I do know is that your apparent knowledge of baseball is far less than you feel it is as portrayed by your actions and evidenced by your comments that you can say as you wish as long as it is not TO the official.

What I also know is that few newbie officials would have addressed the incident discriminately as opposed to merely addressing you immediately. You've tried to disguise your dislike for the official and your inappropriate action on the field by attacking an action by the umpire which might have been better handled in a different manner---assuming the reporting of that action is accurate. His error doesn't excuse yours.......... Still, I'll bet there is far more to this TOTAL SITUATION than what you report.

Finally, the catcher apparently heeded the information provided by the official. It seems your 13 year old catcher shows good jugment and knowledge, and I'd not be surprised if he's above average. You may want to have some discussions with him. He may be willing to give you some pointers.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Another Shameless Promotion
 

Mr. Mattinglyfan;

I have answers to all of your questions, FROM THE COACH'S point of view no less!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately (unless you subscribe), they are on the paid part of the site - beginning November 20 in a series of articles entitled "Manipulating the Umpire."

This series outlines new ways for smart coaches to manipulate dumb umpires. It would appear that you have not been using your superior coach's intellect to manipulate IQ challenged umpires.

The series is addressed to coaches. Hopefully, dumb umpires will recognize themselves in these scenarios and take corrective action, but I have my doubts.

Peter

pon = pawn

As in "Queen's Pawn Game."

By the way, I love it when a play like this occurs:

Abel on 2B, ground ball to F6, Abel runs toward 3B. F6 swipes at Abel and misses her. I call safe and the coach starts in with the she-tagged-her-on-the-whatever routine. No, she missed her, coach.

Then the coach asks F6, nice and loud, "Did you tag her, Jenna?" and Jenna says, also nice and loud, "No."

[Edited by greymule on Nov 11th, 2003 at 01:53 PM]

On Golden Pawn? I don't think that's it.

<b>Another Shameless Promotion </b>


Nahh. It's not the <i>promotion</i> for the paid site that's shameless. ;)

Well I hope you guys all enjoyed giving the straight stuff to Matinglyfan... we haven't heard a word from him in nearly three weeks.

Can't blame him. He got the crap beat out of him. Deservedly so :D but, just the same... he's probably licking his wounds and healing.

Had one of those tags this summer; F6 taking a fast swipe at the runner going by before throwing to 2nd base. Missed the tag. The coach yells out at the shortstop "Did you tag him???" F6 yells back no coach I missed.

At the end of the inning the coach pulls F6 aside and still loud enough for most of the park to hear. "Did you tag him!!" F6 puts his hands about two feet apart and says just as loud "No coach I missed by this much".

Gentlemen, I am a coach,(I do umpire a few tournament games at end of the season) and I think many of you are missing Mattingly's point. Now unless I am reading the original post incorrectly, he went to the mound for a pitching visit, and then was told by his catcher that he couldn't answer where the pitch was? I could understand if he was asking the catcher right after the pitch(in public, so to speak), but during a pitching conference, in a game where I'm coaching, in this situation, I guess you guys are going to have to run me out too. And I used to wonder why so many coaches say umpires are arrogant ***holes.

You read it wrong. He did ask the catcher, as you say, in public right after the pitch. THEN he called time and went to the mound where the catcher told him what the umpire had said.

By the way, Coach, thanks for jumping to a mistaken conclusion and calling us arrogant a$$holes. I think I've had one of your games.



[Edited by GarthB on Nov 14th, 2003 at 12:23 AM]

<b>GB:</b> I know exactly what you mean. Some things seem to never change.

<b>rppeewee:</b> You don't have to be stupid if you don't want to be. The quote from the initial post is, "My catcher caught a borderline pitch. I asked the Catcher 'where did you catch that'. He didn't answer... so I called time to talk to my pitcher. My catcher came up to me and said..."

<b>Everyone else:</b> I'm betting rppeewee will read these responses but is not enough of a man or woman to say, "I apologize because I now realize that it is actually me that is the arrogant a$$hole. I am trying to learn to appreciate the umpires for all the stuff they have to put up with from ignorant coaches and spectators."

Should rppeewee actually make a post such as that, I will give $20 to the Salvation Army Christmas Kettle Drive in his or her honor. (And somehow provide proof here that I did.)

Yes, I realize that the coach's original asking of his catcher was in public, I agree that that was wrong, but the coach went to the mound and THEN was not allowed to ask is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. While I don't agree with Mattinglyfan about asking right after the pitch, asking his catcher during a visit should be ok, but from the sounds of the posts in this thread, he shouldn't even be allowed to question it. When I go to the mound, I don't exactly scream out what is being discussed, so instead of burning a coach who made one bonehead move, why don't you guys jump on the idiot behind the plate too. by the way, send your money to the charity, SC. Oh, Garth, I don't think you would recognize me at a game, I've been coaching for 20 or so years with zero ejections.

Again, you've read it wrong. The coach wasn't told not to ask during the mound conference. It was at the mound conference that the catcher told him what the umpire had said earlier about not answering the coach. The umpire was not at the mound conference and the coach could have asked all he wanted.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions, coach. And I've met many coaches who jump to conclusions that I haven't ejected. I just smile and walk away.

BZZZZ. Oh, so sorry rppeewee. That doesn't quite make an apology nor does it seem that you've realized the multiple ways you are wrong.

But, don't worry. It's off season for me, my brother is an officer with the Salvation Army and I'll be doing lots of volunteer work and donating the money anyway. (<b>Shameless plug:</b> if any of you are looking for something with immediate personal "feel good" rewards, check out helping with some kind of local charity during the holiday season.)

Yes, it was kind of a sucker bet in that the money was already going to the Kettle drive, but rppeewee, I was just going to make it in your name. Now you will have to make it yourself.

Que sera sera.

Probably for the same reason we wonder why so many coaches are ignorant pr-cks. :)

To SC- Mattinglyfan's post doesn't really state the circumstances well, I took it to mean that when he went to the mound, THEN his catcher wasn't allowed to answer his question of where the pitch was. If what was meant was that the catcher couldn't answer right after a pitch, then I agree somewhat with the umpire to not say anything. Any good coach would know not to proceed that way anyway, because unfortunately, umpires (like coaches, believe it or not) are human and if you show them up, you or your team will pay for it. However, many of the posts here are butchering the coach, ignoring the lousy game management of the moron behind the plate. If what Mattinglyfan meant was that he couldn't ask during play, then I misunderstood the post and for that I will apologize.

Like the legless, armless and torso-less Frenchman who was sent to the guillotine, you should have quit while you were ahead.

It might surprise you, rppeewee, to know that most umpires do NOT retaliate against the team when coaches "show them up" and generally behave like idiots. However, even the most mild-mannered umpire will certainly react against any coach who makes personal accusations of "lousy game management" and accuses the umpire of being a "moron". That attitude is an instant ticket to the parking lot. Off you go now, and take that California Redwood-sized chip on your shoulder with you!

Cheers