Cubs-Braves Bottom 6--what a mess.

[gsf23]

Runners at first and third Sheffield up to bat. Sheff hit sinking liner into center field that Lofton catches, but it is ruled a no catch. Loften throws the ball into second base to get the force. Before the ball arrives at second, Sheff passes Giles who was the runner at first. Umpires rule Giles out and leave Sheff at first.

Anyone see the play and any comments?

[ref5678]

tough break for the cubs, and i think had it been a regular season game with just 4 umps that might have been ruled a catch because the second base ump would hgave been closer. I dont know which outfield ump made the call, but it would be my guess that he was still moving or he was straight lined when he made the call. Just goes to show that everyone even the guys in "the show" make mistakes. I feel bad for the guy who made the call. Is he in for the ride of his life if the cubs loose. Or even worse if they loose by 1, but hey it happens.

[brian43]

i was just about to start this thread, you beat me to it.

that was quite the debacle of a play. i thought the catch looked pretty clean when it happened live, but the umpires disagreed with me on that one. then with the replays, im not sure what the deal was with leaving sheffield on 1st.

anyone know, with a 6 man crew, who has that catch? i think they said the left field line umpire made the no catch call. was that the right man for the call? just wondering if that situation was handled correctly as far as the catch/no catch was called.

[ref5678]

just checked my 6 man mechanics mannual (NCAA) and it dictates in this situation that the lfu(left field ump) has the catch/no catch call

[brian43]

alright then they did do it right. i just figured that a ball to center would be Froemmings possibly then the outfield umpires make calls in their area.

i was happy to know that when Sheffield passed Giles, Giles does not have to go to 2nd because Sheffield is out and abandons possesion of first. a friend took another view, then they took the one of the MLB umpire supervisors in the booth and had a great explaination. he explained the situation very well as if the ball was not caught, because he wasnt going to say they blew the catch call.

[Cubbies87]

Originally posted by brian43
then they took the one of the MLB umpire supervisors in the booth and had a great explaination. he explained the situation very well as if the ball was not caught, because he wasnt going to say they blew the catch call.

Brian, what did the supervisor say? I'm sure I'll find it on ESPN at some point, but figured I'd ask anyways.

Unfortunately, I couldn't see the game live. I saw the first couple innings and the 9th inning, but everything in between was during a conflict.

But, GO CUBBIES!

[JEL]

Actually, what the supervisor said did not clear up the ruling on the field. The supervisor didn't address the catch/no catch (which he shouldn't have), nor was he really saying what the actual call was. He did point out that if Sheffield passed Giles, and the force was removed at second, then Giles had a right to first. After seeing all on replay many times, it seems to me the proper call was made if the no catch was ruled. Catch was obvious to me (even in real time), but if ruled no catch, throw to 2B eliminates Giles, and Sheffield gets 1B. That was field ruling, and because Giles was out on force, the pass by Sheffield didnt enter in, although it appeared there was a pass Giles could not return while the force was still in effect. I was more confused after the supervisors visit (and Tim McCarvers rants) than before.

Anyway, it did not change the outcome of the game, Congrats to the Cubbies, time to go fishin'! And my Braves, well still the best team in baseball...in regular season play! Maybe next year........

[YoungRighty]

Everything seemed to make sense eventually by the explanation of the umpire supervisor (didn't catch who it was)...except that the throw to second appeared to have happened after Sheffield (BR) had passed Giles (R1). If that was in fact the case, shouldn't Sheffield have been called out and Giles allowed to return to first (although I'm not sure he ever made it back all the way)?

Giles appeared to me to be claiming that one of the umpires (RF?) was signalling "catch"...and one of the announcers mentioned that early in the sorting out process. But then I never heard any more about that part of it. I don't think any of the cameras caught the umpires, as I couldn't see any of them in the replays until the out call at 2B.

[brian43]

yeah JEL, it didnt really clear up the situation that happened on the field...but it did clear up the situation that i was wondering about (if it were to have happened that way) so it worked for me hahaha.

in the end my cubbies won so i was happy.

[harmbu]

We often hear on here that the players don't know the rules and that is true much of the time. I think it is also worth pointing out that Tim McCarver doesn't know the rules either. He kept sayting that Sheffield and Giles should both be out. I found myself yelling at the TV telling him to shut up if he didn't know what he was talking about. But I guess if he did that, there would be a lot of dead air on his broadcasts.

[Adam]

question: When a runner passes another runner, which one is out? A local hs ump called in and said the runner who gets passed is out (Giles in this case) and not the runner who does the passing (Sheffield). Is this the case in NF? What about MLB. Everything I've seen says the opposite, and that the umps must have called Giles out by force.
Hey, I'm a hoops ref. I can still watch baseball for fun.

Adam Wells

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
A local hs ump...

I think you mean a local bs ump. Any runner is out if he passes a preceeding runner. In this case, they would have declared Sheffield out if they ruled he passed Giles prior to Giles being put out on a force.