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-   -   Offer or Not (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/101590-offer-not.html)

bigda65 Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:30am
Offer or Not
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-frbbAF4f4

Not sure if the link worked..

At about 5:13,

edited to add,

Would you judge this an offer, or would you judge this as not an offer?

ozzy6900 Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:55am
Yes, he went.

bob jenkins Tue Aug 30, 2016 08:48am
I like the umpire's decisive call.

robbie Tue Aug 30, 2016 02:09pm
OK - What am I missing?

Real time from behind the pitcher: Hmmm, may be a swing.

Slow from behind the pitcher: No, I don't think so.

Overhead shot: Really not even close - Good check - No swing.

Mbilica Tue Aug 30, 2016 02:34pm
I don't see an offer here, from any angle. Incorrect call in my view.

Matt Tue Aug 30, 2016 03:02pm
Most definitely a swing.

bigda65 Tue Aug 30, 2016 03:08pm
At first, I thought he judged the ball hit him in the strike zone, I did not think he offered in real time.

Kudos to the umpire, he was pointing immediately and I heard him say "that was a swing"

My vote is no offer.

Matt Tue Aug 30, 2016 04:35pm
Let me point out something which is the biggest reason I have a swing...

He was still swinging when the ball hit him. That will always be an offer in my book.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Aug 30, 2016 09:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt (Post 990282)
Let me point out something which is the biggest reason I have a swing...

He was still swinging when the ball hit him. That will always be an offer in my book.

Your post beat me to the punch.

MTD, Sr.

CT1 Wed Aug 31, 2016 08:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt (Post 990282)
Let me point out something which is the biggest reason I have a swing...

He was still swinging when the ball hit him. That will always be an offer in my book.
Great answer, and one that I'll add to my repertoire.

bigda65 Wed Aug 31, 2016 09:20am
Matt,
My two cents, this pitch is borderline in the batters box = benefit of the doubt goes to the batter.

But for discussion sake, take the pitch completely out of the equation, lets say we put it at eye level directly above the plate, would you still judge an offer?

ozzy6900 Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigda65 (Post 990293)
Matt,
My two cents, this pitch is borderline in the batters box = benefit of the doubt goes to the batter.
It doesn't matter, the pitch was not in the batter's box and the batter offered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigda65 (Post 990293)
Matt,
But for discussion sake, take the pitch completely out of the equation, lets say we put it at eye level directly above the plate, would you still judge an offer?
We as umpires do not have this view so the point is mute.

Rich Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:33pm
I thought this was a miss then and nothing has changed my mind.

bigda65 Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:55pm
Ozzy,

Not trying to start an argument, but the ball is above his left knee, and his knee is really close to the inside of the line. Ball may not be completely inside the line of the batters box. More of the ball is in the box than not.

robbie Wed Aug 31, 2016 02:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 990295)

We as umpires do not have this view so the point is mute.
A view we DO have:
Pretend Plate Ump only called dead ball - go to first. Defense appeals to Base Ump. Are you really saying you would have ruled a swing?

Matt Wed Aug 31, 2016 07:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigda65 (Post 990293)
Matt,
My two cents, this pitch is borderline in the batters box = benefit of the doubt goes to the batter.

But for discussion sake, take the pitch completely out of the equation, lets say we put it at eye level directly above the plate, would you still judge an offer?
Yes. There is no benefit of the doubt...he was still swinging. This is one criterion where I do find it black-and-white--if the batter is still going when the pitch hits him, it is an offer.

Matt Wed Aug 31, 2016 07:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie (Post 990302)
A view we DO have:
Pretend Plate Ump only called dead ball - go to first. Defense appeals to Base Ump. Are you really saying you would have ruled a swing?
If I could see the same thing I saw on replay, then yes.

The view behind the mound in real-time, I was uncertain (thus, I would have HBP.)

jicecone Wed Aug 31, 2016 09:42pm
Borderline on the swing but, either way he made it to first and PU did a good job selling the call. Then again I had the pleasure of watching the replay 3 times. PU made a decision and that was that.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ (Post 990317)
I watched it live and, at the time, my first thought was "no swing". After watching the replay multiple times, I still have no swing. At the time it happened I commented to the folks I was watching with that "the umpire just really screwed up, but he sold it well".
I was taught in umpire school years ago that ultimately we are supposed to judge if the batter actually offered at the pitch. Many years later the NCAA added the caveat of "did the barrel of the bat pass the front hip"? Yes, this is Little League (not pro ball or NCAA), but from my perspective, I still have no swing.

JJ

The one thing that you forgot from umpiring school is to never comment about another umpire's call to a group of non-umpires and therefore do not throw your brother umpire under the bus!

MTD, Sr.

Matt Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ (Post 990317)
I watched it live and, at the time, my first thought was "no swing". After watching the replay multiple times, I still have no swing. At the time it happened I commented to the folks I was watching with that "the umpire just really screwed up, but he sold it well".
I was taught in umpire school years ago that ultimately we are supposed to judge if the batter actually offered at the pitch. Many years later the NCAA added the caveat of "did the barrel of the bat pass the front hip"? Yes, this is Little League (not pro ball or NCAA), but from my perspective, I still have no swing.

JJ
That is not what NCAA means. What that means is that if the barrel passed the hip, it is by definition a swing. It can be a swing even if it doesn't.

ozzy6900 Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie (Post 990302)
A view we DO have:
Pretend Plate Ump only called dead ball - go to first. Defense appeals to Base Ump. Are you really saying you would have ruled a swing?
Absolutely! Look at the video in real time. The only reason the batter was HBP was because he chose to attempt a swing. Yes, he pulled back and if he was never hit, there would have been no swing. But by attempting, he moved his arm into the pitch and that is how I would have ruled it.

bigda65 Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:14pm
So he pulled back, which I think you agree that was no offer, but the pitch hit him, so now it is an offer?
So if the pitch didn't hit him, you would have had ball 4 and no offer?

Matt Thu Sep 01, 2016 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 990325)
Absolutely! Look at the video in real time. The only reason the batter was HBP was because he chose to attempt a swing. Yes, he pulled back and if he was never hit, there would have been no swing. But by attempting, he moved his arm into the pitch and that is how I would have ruled it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigda65 (Post 990327)
So he pulled back, which I think you agree that was no offer, but the pitch hit him, so now it is an offer?
So if the pitch didn't hit him, you would have had ball 4 and no offer?
I'm really not sure why this discussion is occurring. He never pulled back.

ozzy6900 Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt (Post 990332)
I'm really not sure why this discussion is occurring. He never pulled back.
Because we have people that don't understand how to umpire yet. They think that relying on replays, intuition and announcers is the way to do it, instead of officiating on what happened. They'll give up soon.

Rich Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:05pm
5 days later, he still hasn't offered.

bigda65 Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:39am
So far we have,

Yes.. Ozzy, Matt, Mark T. (I think yes), CT1 (I think yes)


No.. Robbie, Mbilica, Bigda, Rich, JJ.

And Im not sure about Bob J and Jicecone

5 to 4, split decision, so I guess we will agree to disagree.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigda65 (Post 990451)
So far we have,

Yes.. Ozzy, Matt, Mark T. (I think yes), CT1 (I think yes)


No.. Robbie, Mbilica, Bigda, Rich, JJ.

And Im not sure about Bob J and Jicecone

5 to 4, split decision, so I guess we will agree to disagree.


I am yes, and Junior also says yes.

MTD, Sr.

Welpe Wed Sep 07, 2016 03:32pm
Late to the party but I don't have an offer either.

MD Longhorn Wed Sep 14, 2016 02:15pm
I'm a little late to this too ... but I have no swing.

And honestly ... I don't even have CLOSE to a swing and I'm a little stunned that at least one person posting here that my brain automatically registers as "always right" when he has something to say ... is calling this a swing.

One thing that does bother me though ... on both sides of the argument --- there's a lot of completely irrelevant elements being used to justify peoples calls (both ways).

JJ Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 990320)
The one thing that you forgot from umpiring school is to never comment about another umpire's call to a group of non-umpires and therefore do not throw your brother umpire under the bus!

MTD, Sr.
Gee, I'm so sorry. I thought we were posting opinions of what we saw. I'll never do it again.

MD Longhorn Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ (Post 990848)
Gee, I'm so sorry. I thought we were posting opinions of what we saw. I'll never do it again.
You completely missed his point.

He was not calling you out for discussing the call HERE.

He was calling you out for your own statement that you derided the umpire to your friends.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Sep 15, 2016 06:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ (Post 990848)
Gee, I'm so sorry. I thought we were posting opinions of what we saw. I'll never do it again.

It is one thing to make your comment here on the Forum, but you admitted that you made the comment, which based upon your description, was to a group of non-umpires. If you did, in fact, make that statement to a group of non-umpires, you did throw one of your brethren under the bus.

MTD, Sr.

scrounge Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:58pm
Not an offer....and frankly didn't even think it was all that close.

JJ Fri Sep 16, 2016 06:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 990850)
You completely missed his point.

He was not calling you out for discussing the call HERE.

He was calling you out for your own statement that you derided the umpire to your friends.
Hmmm. The "folks" I was watching it with ARE umpires, so he shouldn't read into my statement that they were NOT. If I'm guilty of bus-throwing, then so is everyone else who says he didn't go, because they're also saying he missed the call and are telling "folks" the umpire got it wrong. I still don't think the batter offered at the pitch, and if that's throwing someone under the bus because he thought he DID offer, well...

JJ


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