Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
I am going to disagree with Tony on a couple of points he has made.
1. "The offensive player isn't required to stay within his vertical plane, but the defender is. And if he doesn't, he is no longer in a legal guarding position. Read 4-44" No where in 4-44 does it say the defenders loses his legal guarding position by his jumping to a new spot. He does lose his rights to verticality, but not LGP. He is now a defender, moving to a new angle from which to defend his/her opponent. It may not be a good angle, but as long as the principles of LGP are kept, the position is maintained. In fact, it happens all the time. Picture a defender sliding sideways with the offensive players at a very fast pace. There will be moments when both of the defenders feet are off the floor.
For my rule, I cite 4-23-3.
"4-23-3 After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard is NOT required to have either or both feet on the floor or continue facing the opponent.
b. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."
A defender is moving in a path (in the air), not toward the offensive player. Granted, by jumping the defender is not moving very fast, but the offensive player still runs into the defender. Is the contact the defender's responsibility?
Or consider this example. As the offensive player is driving toward the basket, the defender has established LGP in the path between the offensive player and the basket. As the offensive player nears, the defender jumps up, slightly backward, leaving the verticle plane, the offensive player does not alter course and makes contact. Who will the foul be on? If on the offense, what makes this situation different in your eyes? If you would call this on the defense, then we just plain disagree about being able to maintain LGP.
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So, you're saying that once a guard establishes a LGP, he never gives it up?
Why is there a difference in these two plays?
A1 is dribbling to the basket and B1, who has established LGP, now...
#1...runs in front of A1.
#2...jumps in front of A1.
10-6-3 Note specifically states:
If he/she jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he/she has obtained a guarding position.
If what you say is true, then a defender can never again be called for a blocking foul, if at anytime during the sequence he had LGP. And that's simply not true. Defenders establish LGP all the time and still illegally move into the path of a dribbler or shooter.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I really can't see the difference.In the sitch that started this thread,the defender wouldn't have made any physical contact at all,if the shooter hadn't moved into the defender's path AFTER the defender left his feet.I think that the offensive player thus initiated the contact,and should be the one who is penalized(if you're gonna call anything).I also think that it's just as dangerous to move under ANYONE after they jump,as it is for the shooter alone. JMHO.
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Woody, completely out of the norm for you, you're simply telling me what you "think" and what your opinion is. You have yet to offer any rule reference to back up what you "think".
Okay fellas, I'm done with this one. I guess we can agree to disagree. But you're ignoring established rules and priniciples, for what you "think" should be called.
