Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I follow your argument, but don't agree with it.
However, this is a good exercise in criticial/logical thinking, so...to follow your lead, let me alter my example and ask further questions of you.
1. While A1 is holding a live ball inbounds near the FT line, A2 and B2 are battling for position near the basket. B2 excessively swings his arms/elbows and strikes A2 in the face. How are you penalizing this action?
a. Excessive arm/elbow swinging violation with a technical foul for intentional/flagrant dead ball contact.
b. A common personal foul or an intentional/flagrant personal foul.
2. During a throw-in while A4 is holding the ball out-of-bounds, B4 steps across the boundary plane and punches A4 in the face. How are you penalizing this action?
a. A breaking the plane violation by Team B and a dead ball flagrant technical foul.
b. A flagrant personal foul.
In both cases, who may attempt the FTs is different depending upon your answer, so this does matter and must be clearly covered by the rules.
I hope that you find these examples more satisfactory for comparison to MS's line of thinking.
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Both good points.
However, in #1, the elbow violation is still a judgement call. So, you could easily ignore it, and be within the rules, and then call a personal foul of any type. There is also nothing in the rules that says you can't call the swing and then call the contact as a T. So, there is no rules justification for saying either one is the right call over the other one. There may be interpretations or philosophies that direct us to call it as a live ball foul, but it isn't required in the rules. Breaking the plane, on the other hand, is black/white, no judgement needed. They player either crossed the line or they didn't.
#2 is a much better example IMHO. (While that opens up the rules conflict where a punch is defined as a fight and a fight is declared to be a technical foul while live ball contact is defined as a personal foul, I'm going to ignore that issue). We do have a case play that says if it is one act, to treat it as the most severe of the possibilities. However, if it is clearly two actions, where B steps across the line and then in a 2nd movement, punched A4, I've got a plane violation and then a T. If, however, B4 swings from inbounds and through the plane and connecting in one motion, I have a flagrant T....per the case play directing us to treat one action as one infraction of the more severe type.