Quote:
Originally posted by Bfair
Pete, there is something here I am not understanding.
If RUNNER BEAT THROW to 2nd but missed the base, would he not have been safe had he touched the base? Thereby, R3 would have scored anyway. No advantage is gained by offense by missing the base! In fact, offense is in liability of being put out again despite beating throw since runner missed the base.
Originally posted by PeteBooth
OBR 7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he TOUCHES IT (my emphasis) before he is out.
...[snip]...
If this is correct IMO, the offense does gain a BIG advantage because r1 now has to be tagged making it a time play as opposed to a force play in which the run does not count.
Beating a throw is not in question here, Touching the base is. If all a player had to do was beat a throw the Game would be a lot different.
We can go on an on with this subject all day. I do not mean to be adament or straight out refuse to accept others opinions, but on this play I just do not see it.
The FED through their case book actually defines these types of playes. In OBR it is still "Grey".
Pete Booth
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Pete,
I don't want to resurrect the long debate from eTeamz and bring it here either. However, you have taken this line over there in several of your recent posts, and I still can't reply there because of a problem with my account. I therefore feel entitled to take you to task here, for that reason.
FACT 1. The Bremigan ruling says that the FORCE is removed when a player "reaches" a base, whether it is touched or not. That is the Pro interpretation of
their rules. You don't have to like it, or agree with it, BUT if your association follows those interpretations then you DO have to follow it.
FACT 2. The offense
does gain a
very slight advantage by this ruling BUT only in certain very specific circumstances. It is not the "BIG advantage" that you claim. That advantage ONLY comes with 2 out where the out in question would be the 3rd out AND an advance runner might score on the play. Otherwise there is just NO ADVANTAGE at all. It is STILL an OUT when the runner is tagged off the base.
FACT 3. If the offense can slip by a base in these circumstances AND in so doing delay the 3rd out while a runner scores then they CAN turn that advantage from the ruling into a run. HOWEVER, we are talking about seconds here, not minutes. We have a runner who is bound to that base by a 3 foot semi-circle. If he backs out of that to avoid a tag he's out anyway! If the defense tags him first, he's out anyway.
The ONLY way your
near impossible scenario works is if the defense simply sits there and watches the runner making no attempt to acquire the bag while the runner scores AND they also make NO ATTEMPT TO TAG the runner out. That is just NOT going to happen when the runner is restricted to that 3 foot semi-circle!
What Bfair is saying is that most offensive coaches would rather have their runner SAFE on that base, having beat the ball, than play Russian Roulette on the third out to gain a few precious seconds for a run to score. You just can't COACH a team to watch for that obscure scenario. You wouldn't either, especially when you consider how loose the PU's judgement on the timing play can be! You could lose everything you gambled by deliberately missing the bag on the PU's poor judgement of when the tag took place! That's NOT percentage baseball!
At eTeamz you even raised the issue of a 6-4-3 DP in relation to this question.
Fact 4. There is NO ADVANTAGE to be gained if this is NOT the 3rd out! If it IS the 3rd out, then there is NO DP possible.
Pete, please take a moment to reconsider what you're saying here. I think you've hitched your wagon to a dead horse! (grin)
Cheers,
Warren Willson
[Edited by Warren Willson on Dec 6th, 2000 at 04:53 PM]