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Originally Posted by M&M Guy
But, Camron, you and I both know this is a specific exception written for a specific instance - to get around the wording in 4-44-5(b). Nothing more, nothing less. It is even noted as the corresponding rule (which you didn't include in your quotes...). The only reason that exception was put in was because otherwise the move of putting the ball down, standing up, then picking up the ball would be perfectly legal under the rest of the travel rule.
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It establishes a philosoply that there unusal and unintended actions that should still be considered as traveling even when the actions don't directly violate the exact traveling rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Besides, what does this have to do with the OP, where the ball never touches the ground, and the player never has control of the ball while on the ground?  What you seem to be telling me, in comparing the OP with this case play, is that somehow the OP is actually a legal play as well, but A1 must be getting away with circumventing a rule (in other words, doing something otherwise legal), so we gotta call *something*. |
No, what is does is esablish the idea that A1 is to be considerd to be holding the ball the entire time when they voluntarily release the ball in a way that is neither a dribble, pass, nor try and are the next player to touch the ball. Under that concept, the involved movement becomes a travel in both the OP and the case of the player on the floor because there were considered to be holding the ball and move their effective "pivot foot".
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
As far as whether it's a travel, "foot movement" is certainly an aspect, but you've still left out one very important phrase in the rule: "while holding the ball".
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All fine except for the case play that says the very same action of tossing the ball into the air and catching it is legal when the player is standing still. If it really was a dribble (illegal dribble), this case would also be illegal...but it is not.
The only difference between the legal case play and the one ruled traveling is foot movement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Every aspect of the pivot foot and specific restrictions all happen while holding the ball. (Yes, of course, with the exception noted above, but again, that's an otherwise legal move that is specifically not allowed when trying to stand up with the ball.) In the OP, all of the "foot movement" happens without the player holding the ball. That's why I do not believe it's a travel.
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Unless you think of it as I described above where the player is treated as if they were holding the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Why do I feel it's an illegal dribble? 4-15-2: "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." In the OP, the ball didn't hit the floor, so it's a violation.
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In the OP, the ball wasn't batted into the air at all either. It was thrown. So, the rule doesn't really cover the case of throwing either. In fact, the rule 4-15-2 is not what you really think it is. Go dig up an NFHS Basketball Handbook. Find the part about when the dribbling rules were established. Read about early forms of dribbling and then you'll understand what this rule is really about. It has nothing to do with how a dribble is started and everything to do with a form of dribbling that hasn't been used in 75+ years.