Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
On the play you mention, I would rule that the BR reinstated the force by retreating toward home and that only 1B need be tagged. However, I'd be careful to use terminology other than "force." By the way, I've seen that play happen, and for what it's worth, the umps called an out when the base was tagged.
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I think I, too, would rule as you do.
However, I'd not be so concerned about sidestepping the wording of reinstating the force.
Here is Childress' comments regarding official interpretations:
When Rumble (FED) and Thurston, now Fetchiet, (NCAA) speak, that is ex cathedra and supersedes the rule book language, regardless of what that language may say.
So.....let's review what the official interpretations and authoritative opinions have to say about it.
For the Fed you can merely look at the Fed Rule Reference post above. It shows Fed play 8.2.3:
8.2.3 SITUATION: B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball and casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw.
Ruling: B1 is out. Because the force play is being made on the runner and is a result of continuing action, F3 is not required to appeal the missed base and needs only to complete the force out. [my emphasis]
Please advise how there can be a "force out" at 1B unless the batter-runner was forced?
Hasn't the Fed with this caseplay just told us that a BR is forced to 1B?
For OBR, here is there definition of a double play:
A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a
result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.
(a) A force double play is one in which both putouts are force plays.
(b) A reverse force double play is one in which the first out is a force play and the second out is made on a runner for whom the force is removed by reason of the first out. Examples of reverse force plays: runner on first, one out; batter grounds to first baseman, who steps on first base (one out) and throws to second baseman or shortstop for the second out (a tag play).
Note that the definition says that the first out is a force play, and then they cite the batter-runner at 1B as the first out.
And here's what Jim Evans says in the JEA under "force play":
It is important to understand that anytime a following runner or the batter-runner is retired, all force plays on preceding runners are removed.
A runner can never be considered forced to any base beyond the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. For example, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. The batter hits a home run. The runner from third is forced home; the runner from second is considered forced to third only; the runner from first is considered forced to second only; and the batter-runner is considered forced to first only. [my emphasis]
There are other examples in authoritative opinion referring the out at 1B as a force out, but it sure seems to me that Evans states that he considers the BR forced to 1B.
And J/R states:
Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when:
(2) he is forced out.
Well, if a batter-ruuner is not forced to 1B, then please tell me
where else a batter-runner could be forced? It seems J/R agrees a batter-runner is forced to 1B.
So what about NCAA? The NCAA issued the 4th advantageous out ruling:
PLAY: Two outs, runners on second base and third base. The batter singles to the outfield, but injures himself coming out of the box and cannot continue to first base. R3 scores easily. R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. The catcher then throws to first base for a fourth out on the batter-runner.
RULING: This would be considered a live ball appeal. The out at first base would be considered an advantageous out for the defense and the very fact that they made the play would indicate their choice of this fourth out. Since the batter-runner was out on a force out at first base, R2s run would not count. [my emphasis]
Hmmm....it seems now that even the NCAA says the BR is forced to 1B.
All codes in some way refer to the out at 1B as a force out or force play. Bottom line, a poorly worded definition is used, yet the out at 1B is treated as a force out (and obviously also referred to as one). Its interesting to think of all those people that accept such examples from casebooks and authoritative opinion (and the OBR) as a citation proving an issue in regards to other matters, yet they are unwilling to accept the examples and AO's
regarding this issue.
Here's the definition of a run:
A RUN (or SCORE) is the score made by an offensive player who advances from batter to runner and touches first, second, third and home bases in that order. [my emphasis]
So,
by definition, do you not count runs when bases are not touched? Or do you accept the other rules, official interpretations, and authoritative opinions that clarify the definition and allow the run to score when the base is not touched if not appealed?
So, do you accept the cited rules, official interpretations, and authoritative opinions that cite 1B as being a base that a BR is forced to? If not, then why not? It's coming from the same sources telling you to score a run when the bases are not touched.
As you point out, Greymule,
can anyone show:
- Anywhere where the out at 1B is NOT treated as a force out?
- Any example of how the out at 1B is treated any differently than any other forced base?
If it looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, sounds like it, and they tell me it is..........
then it is................
Just my opinion,
Freix