Jump ball or out of bounds?

Back In The Saddle

BadNewsRef wrote
I don't see what one play has to do with the other.

They both involve a player making an extraordinary play. With a dead ball.

BadNewsRef wrote
In my scenario, which actually happened to me in a pick-up game, I elevated and attempted to shoot, the first defender got his hand on top of the ball as I was elevating.

Nice defensive play.

BadNewsRef wrote
As I was coming back down I was able to pull the ball back and release it.

Very nice, athletic play on your part. Too bad it doesn't count. 😉

BadNewsRef wrote
The 2nd defender blocked my shot.

Nice play on his part. Won't help his stats though.

BadNewsRef wrote
There is no way in heck that if this play occurred in a regulation game that I would blow my whistle and rule a held ball.

Now that may be true. We could have a very ... enthusiastic discussion about whether this reaction falls into the "that way it's really done" category. Same with the play where the shooter gets capped, and then loses the ball. I've never seen either of these plays blown dead immediately.

But, by rule, it's a held ball, the ball is dead, and the extraordinary second effort is irrelevant.

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

I didn't know there was going to be math on the Forum today.

just another ref

ILMalti wrote
Please read my full post.

If a player is on the GROUND and is about to try and the opponent places a hand on the ball preventing the try, this is NOT a held ball,

It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

ILMalti

just another ref wrote
It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

I am still debating internally how this and Camron post fall under the "undue roughness", I still do not see how it is possible, but I will get back with my definitive answer shortly

Camron Rust

Back In The Saddle wrote
Nice defensive play.

No held ball situation is a nice play...it is a compromise play where neither team is entirely deserving of the ball. That is the entire basis of resuming with either a jump or a possession arrow.

If it were really that nice of a defensive play, the defender would have taken the ball from the offensive player by either grabbing the ball or knocking it away from the shooter.

If the shooter is able to adjust and release the shot before landing, what was prevented? Of course, in a majority of a cases, it will prevent the shot, I'm not killing the play until it is clear the shot was prevented. If the defender can't prevent the shooter from releasing the shot, they haven't earned anything.

Once the shooter is in the air, all motions are part of the same shot attempt as long as the shooter maintains control of the ball. Who would cancel the shot of a shooter that goes up with the ball in the left hand and switches to the right hand to complete the shot just because they were fouled prior to shifting the ball to the right hand. It is really two halves of the same attempt, not two seperate attempts.

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
Once the shooter is in the air, all motions are part of the same shot attempt as long as the shooter maintains control of the ball.

This is debatable.

Who would cancel the shot of a shooter that goes up with the ball in the left hand and switches to the right hand to complete the shot just because they were fouled prior to shifting the ball to the right hand.

A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. A held ball call does.

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
This is debatable.

A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. A held ball call does.

But is it really held at all? I find it pretty hard to explain that the release was prevented as the ball is dropping out of the net.

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
But is it really held at all? I find it pretty hard to explain that the release was prevented as the ball is dropping out of the net.

When is a held ball a held ball? There is no simple answer.

4-25-2 could have just as easily stated:

.......prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball........before he returns to the floor.

but it doesn't. We must see each play and decide when to make the call. Whatever happens after that, including a release, is irrelevant.

ILMalti

just another ref wrote
It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

Camron Rust wrote
Oh really? Might want to rethink that one. Collectively, each having either one or two hands on the ball satisfies the clause "opponents have their hands so firmly". If two players have a hold of the ball such that it would take excessive force to free it...it is a jump ball. Forget about how many hands are on the ball....two hands (one from each) is adequate. It just happens that one hand on the ball is rarely enough for a player to retain their hold on the ball but it can be done.

This is the short version since I lost my length disertation :

We are talking about

A) 4.25.1 ONLY; ie A1 has ball foot/feet on court not dribbling.
B) A1 and B1 only have one hand a piece on the ball
C) "control cannot be obtained without undue roughness"
D) rough is described as : "Characterized by violent motion"; "characterized by unnecessary violence or infractions of the rules"; "acting with or characterized by violence:" (ref; rough; - definition of rough; by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. rough definition | Dictionary.com)

Remembering the definition of "rough", I cannot see how a held ball can occur when A1 and B1 only have one hand on the ball. Even "muscling the ball does not fit under the description of rough. Perhaps it is due to lack of experience on court.

On the other hand if 3 or more players are involved then I would agree with you, but now we have 3 or more hands

Camron Rust

ILMalti wrote
This is the short version since I lost my length disertation :

We are talking about

A) 4.25.1 ONLY; ie A1 has ball foot/feet on court not dribbling.
B) A1 and B1 only have one hand a piece on the ball
C) "control cannot be obtained without undue roughness"
D) rough is described as : "Characterized by violent motion"; "characterized by unnecessary violence or infractions of the rules"; "acting with or characterized by violence:" (ref; rough; - definition of rough; by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. rough definition | Dictionary.com)

Remembering the definition of "rough", I cannot see how a held ball can occur when A1 and B1 only have one hand on the ball. Even "muscling the ball does not fit under the description of rough. Perhaps it is due to lack of experience on court.

On the other hand if 3 or more players are involved then I would agree with you, but now we have 3 or more hands

Ever seen a player tuck the ball in their arm like a football, holding the ball between their hand/arm and their body?? Imagine two players doing it at the same time...wrestling for a rebound perhaps. And, yes, I've seen plays like this more than a few times.

Adam

just another ref wrote
A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. A held ball call does.

Perhaps, but after a foul, the ball becomes dead when the "try" ends.

ILMalti

Camron Rust wrote
Ever seen a player tuck the ball in their arm like a football, holding the ball between their hand/arm and their body?? Imagine two players doing it at the same time...wrestling for a rebound perhaps. And, yes, I've seen plays like this more than a few times.

Then I stand corrected.

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