[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So A can't use the exception unless B sends someone deep. Do you want A to just yell out and ask B if they are sending someone deep? First off B isn't going to line up in a punt return formation until A lines up in a punt return formation (or has the punt team coming on the field). How would it be possible for A to substitute after B is set?

You didn't read what I wrote in the thread above (or maybe it was fully described in the other thread)? A would look to see if B had someone deep, and if so the officials would allow time for A to sub in numbers outside of 50-79. Team A would be allowed to use the numbering exception until the ball was put in play or play was prevented, even if B shifted out of their scrimmage kick formation.

So it's 4th & 15. A sees that B is sending someone deep so they remove the 5 players 50-79. Then before the snap the deep B player moves up to 24 yards deep. How can what B does dictate if A fouls?

As above, as long as B showed scrimmage kick formation, those players would be allowed to remain in and use the numbering exception.

So of all the hundreds of thousands of football games everyone on this board has seen we have 1 example of a team that uses a SKF for their normal offense. I don't see how that is relevant.

Surely from my sampling there'd be other examples in a world this size. How many teams use A-11? You insist on writing the rules to take account of this minuscule number of teams, yet you blithely would sweep aside other minorities of systems that may be out there now or in the future.

Also if a team want to line up in a punt formation all the time it is fine, but the numbering exception will not be in effect.

Well, then, why not write a rule that draws such a line that doesn't rely on officials' judgement of the play situation? Why not write it like the pass interference rules, or roughing the passer, which don't require you to assess whether you think it's a passing situation?

I didn't say that. The A-11 has the players spread across the field. No team is dumb enough to attempt a place kick field goal from that formation, blockers are needed to prevent B from blocking the kick. It is obvious when a team is setting up for a field goal.

And so you would make that part of the official's judgement too? Would it surprise you to learn that I've seen an unusual place kicking formation too? Or that some teams are using the place kick for filed position instead of punting? Go figure, but there are some coaches that advocate it, even though I think they're nuts. But the rules should accommodate the plans even of those coaches I think are nuts.

As far as I know teams who punt not on 4th down like it to be a surprise and therefore line up in a normal offensive formation therefore the numbering exception has nothing to do with this.

Then I guess I know more about football than you do. Teams will punt from regular punt formation short of 4th down when they have poor field position (especially combined with poor ball control conditions) or little hope of making the line to gain. It's done because the threat of a run or pass in such a situation is greater than on last down, so there's less pressure on the kicker and coverage is easier. One game I saw the L.A. Rams (yes, they used to be in Los Angeles) line up in punt formation 4 times on 3rd down, and they punted on 3 of those 4 occasions and ran on the other.

Yes, drop kicks matter. A isn't going to punt on 1st down on B's 10 yard line. They could say that the QB was going to drop kick and therefore they were not in a field goal formation.

So explain how that makes it easier for you to tell it's a scrimmage kick situation.

Do you understand the reason there is a numbering exception? It is so that teams do not have to do stuff like that.

This has nothing to do with a knowing a team won't pass. You saying that just proves you really don't understand this at all. The numbering exception is used for kicking situations. It has nothing to do with saying a team must kick.

You're so solicitous of team A's being able to throw to any receiver even from scrimmage kick formation that you wouldn't want them to sacrifice even one eligible receiver to get a special snapper in at center, yet you deny them the use of the numbering exception to hide eligible receivers unless you deem it by pure judgement a kicking situation? Why is it so important to preserve up to 6 eligible receivers if you think a kick is likely anyway?

Robert