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Originally Posted by MrUmpire
Again, in your minds eye. Apparently some of us "see" the play ocurring differently. What's wrong with that?
If it ocurred as slowly as you describe, I would agree with your call. However, in my experience, these plays don't happen that way...they happen very quickly, at least at the levels I work.
So we see the play that we didn't see with different eyes due to our different backgrounds and experiences.
What I don't understand is how you can only imagine one way for this play to unfold.
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I agree with most of what you say on most things. And true each might see it different. But at higher levels, shouldnt there be consistency on this type of stuff? I mean, thats why the Big Dawgs make it to that level. Making the right calls on these types of plays. So, yes...usually these are close plays, not always bangers though. And if we are doing the same levels..college...then we should be close to the same page. But since we dont have a visual, we only have descriptive terms from the post. And the words used to describe the play, to me, lean towards this not being your ususal standard pickoff move.
On a pick, do we usually see both runner and fielder tumble off the bag, and then a tag? I cant remember If Ive seen a play like that.
So, since we have something out of the ordinary, what caused it to happen? Again, with no visual, we have just the post.
And on this play, I dont read it as close-close. When the post says..
"runner GETS BACK to 2nd base standing up" isnt that saying the runner is in full control of his body, and has the bag?
.." has to reach around the runner standing on second to catch the throw..." to me this reinforces that the runner was back to the bag...he says "standing on 2nd"...and the SS now is making the first step in causing them to come off the base. .."reach around the runner"..who is standing on the bag.
..."The shortstop, after catching the ball is off balance and leans on the runner"... It says SS off-balance. Doesnt that mean that the SS is the one not in control? Runner is back to the base, standing. And then LEANS on the runner. Here comes the SS, running to the play, with momentum. Still moving, gloves the throw, off balance, and leans into the runner. Put all that together. You have a stationary R2, and now the SS comes flying in, and off-balance leans into the runner. Doesnt that mean the total movement of the SS from start to finish, is what caused R2 to come off the base?
I realize this all takes place in just a matter of seconds. But its not your normal pickoff play.
What caused the runner to come off? The runner, or the fielder. Im just saying, from the descriptive terms used in the post, and the way I picture it playing out, it was the actions of the SS and his momentum on the play, that caused him to continue on through, with R2 in his path, and that carried them both off the base.
Just too much in the post. "runner gets back"...."standing on the base".."reach around the runner"..."reach around the runner STANDING on
2nd"...."after catching the ball is off balance and leans on the runner"
Doesnt all this support that the SS caused an in-control R2 to come off the base?
You say these plays dont normally happen that way. But rarely do they happen like this. Its usually just a spin and throw by F1, and a tag attempt. Not the F6 doing the Macarena into the runner.
Im going by the terms in the post...I dont see something in there that leads one to think that it was part action by the runner that caused him not to be "stable", and thus come off the base by a "normal" baseball play.
The post seems to indicate otherwise.
I figured there would be some who would disagree, Im just surprised at some of the people on here who would have a safe.
But I guess this thread has gone too long by now. You go with what you have, based on what you think "normally" happens on plays like these, and Ill go with the information given, be it in a post, or on the field, and judge em that way.