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Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I contend it is when I say/think "Yes, I am granting this TO request". Usually, I blow the whistle and signal for the clock to stop at that moment. In rare instances, the whistle doesn't get blown at the exact moment. The question between us is whether the granting occurs only at the whistle, or at my physically/mentally saying "Yes, granted." The rule only says granted, and there is no direct connection between "granting" and "blowing the whistle", other than you blow the whistle as a signal to the timer to stop the clock, because you are granting a TO request.
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We are obviously going to agree to disagree on this. I think the rules are pretty clear, although one has to look in a couple of different places to make the determination.
As stated before, Rule 5-8-3 "...Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a T/O..." The timer has no idea if you mentally granted it first. In fact since the clock won't stop until you blow your whistle, nor the ball won't/can't be dead in this instance until you blow your whistle then it certainly stands to reason that the granting of the T/O is on the whistle. The whistle would be the signal that alerts everyone involved that play is dead, the time should stop, and when the clock should stop.
If your saying that you mentally grant first and acknowledge it second with the whistle implies that you think the ball is dead or would have to be dead when you mentally grant the T/O. If you believe the ball to be dead then your saying that in the OP play with time running out, you hear the HC call the excessive T/O, you mentally "grant" it, horn goes goes off, & you blow your whistle there should be a penalty. Are you seriously saying that your going back to penalize the excessive T/O and adding time back on the clock since you mentally granted it first even though th whistle didn't sound before the horn?
The answer has to be NO!!! Which has been my point all along with the ball not being dead until the whistle blows regardless if you think you mentally granted it first. There is absolutely nothing in the rule book anywhere that says the ball would be dead when an official hears the request and mentally grants it. In fact Rule 6-7 lets us know with out a doubt what makes the ball dead, in this case it would be on the whistle.
So if the ball isn't dead until the whistle then along with Rule 5-8 & 6-7, & the officials manual page 44 & under the diagram on page 45 gives us all of the info we need in order to rule correctly on the play. Page 44 covers the T/O procedures, sounding of the whistle, when not to "GRANT" and so on. Page 45's diagram gives the verb-age of, "when a T/O is granted the official shall...."
Like I said in my last post. If in the OP the crew went to the monitor to check the time, if they were to add time back, they would be looking for time on the clock when the WHISTLE was sounded, not on any visual signal from the coach or when the official said he heard the request. That would be the only way to do it since the whistle is what caused the ball to be dead.
Your case play 10.1.6 was totally different because it was a actual foul which by rule 6-7 causes the ball to be dead on the action of the foul. So if in the OP they had a foul @ the end of regulation then they would be adjusting the time to when the action of the foul happened and not the whistle. In FED basketball we don't have that luxury because we don't have courside monitors to use so all we can look for is that the clock stops correctly on the whistle.
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Originally Posted by M&M
I contend there are many instances that allow for the ball to become dead, even though the whistle hasn't blown. I am making that assumption from the various rule and case statements allowing for that. You are saying that granting a TO request isn't specifically listed in 6-7 as a way for the ball to become dead, like it would for a foul or violation. I agree, I am using a slight leap to get to my conclusion. But you are also using a slight leap to get to your conclusion the granting only happens at the whistle.
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I don't believe it to be a leap on my part. The thing I do know for sure is that the ball doesn't become dead when granting a T/O until you blow your whistle. That is specifically covered in Rule 6-7-5. To agree with your conclusion would have to mean that I think the ball is dead when we mentally grant the T/O and not on the actual whistle. Since I know that conclusion isn't rule supported, I have to believe that the actual granting is on the whistle.
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Originally Posted by M&M
What if a player bumped into you at that moment, knocking the whistle out of your mouth, and you didn't get back in your mouth in time? Do you not grant the TO? Would it make a difference if it was a teammate of the player requesting TO? How about an opponent? Would you tell Coach A, "Sorry, I can't grant the TO because B1 knocked the whistle out of my mouth, and I couldn't get it blown soon enough."?
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I see your point here, even though it is extremely unlikely that it would ever happen. If this 1 in a million play happens then I'm like you, I would feel compelled to grant the T/O. My verb-age to the opposing coach would be that as I was starting to put air in the whistle so & so knocked my whistle out of my mouth.
I really don't think that would ever happen, although not impossible, but if it does then I'm going to sell the hell out of the call and explain accordingly. With that being said the ball still wouldn't be dead until the sounding of my whistle or if the player landed OOB. It would then be up to me how I would handle the request, bump/body block, losing whistle play.
Edit; In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter when either you or I think the T/O is granted, mentally or on the whistle. The important thing to realize in this play is that I can't make a timing correction unless the whistle was clearly before the horn. If I don't have the whistle before the horn the the ball was dead @ the horn and before the (As you believe) signal of the T/O was given. There is nothing in the rules that allow us to go back and add time just because we heard the request before the horn went off unless we had a whistle before the horn which makes the ball dead, RIGHT THEN.