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Old Thu Feb 28, 2008, 12:55pm
Gimlet25id Gimlet25id is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Richmond, IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
We agree.
We don't agree!!! Your saying the ball was dead already before the whistle was blown to grant the T/O. I completely disagree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M
Actually, the complete wording of 6-7-5 says the "The ball becomes dead,or remains dead when...(Art. 5) an official's whistle is blown."
Becomes dead when granting a T/O with the whistle. Is dead already when a FOUL happens before the whistle as outline in RULE 6-7. Big difference between the two the "action" of the FOUL has nothing to do with the action of the request.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M
Add that to the Rules Fundamental #16 - "The officials' whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead; it is already dead."
Seldom doesn't mean NEVER. It would be dead when a FOUL happens. According to rule 6-7 this would be dead without a whistle . Its not already dead or dead when a request of a T/O is recognized. If it was then it would be listed in Rule 6-7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M
This is also backed up by the case play 10.1.6, that actually tells us that we still act upon the "action", and we still make the call, even though the whistle didn't blow in time.
We act on the action if it is a FOUL. This case play has to do with a player who illegally enters, becomes a legal player, when recognized by the official on the floor would be a FOUL, dead ball(Technical) Rule 6-7 states that the ball is dead when a FOUL happens. Your using a foul case play to validate your claim that the ball becomes dead when we hear/see a request for a T/O. These two have nothing to do with one another. Again Case play 10.1.7 clearly states that there has to be a request and then it would have to be granted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M
All of these things together make it pretty clear to me that it is not the whistle that causes the ball to become dead, it is the "action".
Only in the situations listed in Rule 6-7. The action of the Foul being listed. Nothing @ all mentioned about the "action" of the requesting. If that was the case then 10.1.7 would only say the the request is relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M
In the case play, the "action" is a foul; in our sitch, the "action" is the official granting the TO. The whistle is simply a signal to let everyone know. Can you give me any rule or case play backing that says granting a TO is done only by blowing the whistle?
Rule 5-8-3. The timer would stop the clock when the T/O is granted. In order for him to stop the clock there would have to be a whistle. This tells me that the granting is the whistle. When is the T/O granted? How does the timer know when to stop the clock? When does the ball become dead? In this situation ,thats not a foul, when the WHISTLE blows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M
In the example of the player falling OOB while requesting a TO, if you somehow didn't have the whistle in your mouth, would you not grant the TO simply because you didn't blow the whistle before they landed OOB? I would grant the TO in this case. Even better, would they not be considered OOB when they landed because you didn't blow the whistle? Of course not.
First of all I would NEVER have my whistle out of my mouth. But for the sake of this debate lets say it slips out while the player is falling OOB. I guarantee you that I will be quick enough to get the whistle in my mouth with air coming out before the player is CLEARLY OOB.

You keep listing dead ball plays that are all listed in Rule 6-7. The OOB play being specifically listed in Rule 6-7-9. So your right the play would be OOB with a DEAD ball when the violation happens, dead before the whistle. In all of the situations listed in Rule 6-7 except for the whistle the ball is dead without a whistle. The T/O request isn't listed so the only way the ball can become dead is with the WHISTLE.

This just simply isn't handled the same way a foul or violation is as far as when the ball becomes dead. The whistle is the key to the T/O situation. If in the OP they would've went to the monitor they would have put the time on the clock that was visible when the whistle blew not when they see a visual signal or when they hear the coach call it.
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