[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think I disagree with a couple of your points.
First, you are right that the "request" doesn't stop play, the "granting" does. When does that "granting" actually happen? That has been debated in the past, but I contend it's when I mentally grant it, not specifically when the whistle blows. That can be backed by a rule fundamental: The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, because it is already dead.

Your right it is seldom but not never. There is nothing in rule 6 that says the ball is dead when the coach/player request a T/O legal or otherwise or when it is observed, heard or recognized. Its when the whistle blows granting the T/O.

The granting of the T/O by blowing the whistle is what causes the ball to become dead. To grant the T/O you would blow the whistle. Rule 6-7-5. You can't assume that the mental "granting super cedes the actual whistle granting." To say so would open up a whole lot of other stitch's as far as dead ball contact plays & timing corrections.

I see your point as far as a player calling T/O while in the air then lands before a whistle. The ball isn't dead while the player is requesting a T/O in the air it would be dead on the landing OOB or by the whistle. I have never blew my whistle after a player has landed and granted a T/O. If I'm so late in granting a T/O that the player clearly lands OOB then I'm calling the player OOB. Its like you said that its almost instant in blowing the whistle in plays like this.

Originally Posted by M&M

So, the TO has been granted even though my whistle hasn't blown.

I disagree. Its recognized but not granted until the whistle blows. I just can't agree that its granted as soon as you hear it. The actual whistle has to be the granting and the key to decide if the ball is dead and if there is going to be a timing correction

Originally Posted by M&M

But I'm sure you've seen the play at the end of a close game where one team scores, then try to call TO before the other team gets the ball in play, and the whistle blows as the pass in the air. That's because the official had to verify the request was legal, as per 5-8-3 (team-control, at disposal, or dead ball), and therefore granted the TO even though the whistle might be a moment later.

I have seen that play several times and am not sure that we are correct in granting the T/O after the ball is @ the disposal of the other team. So are you going to go back and reset the clock since your saying that the T/O was granted on the request & not the whistle? Of course not. If a coach calls a T/O and you look up & see 15 seconds then as you blow your whistle the clock stops @ 14 are you going back and adding the second since the request was @ 15?

Originally Posted by M&M

There is a case play, 10.1.6, that states an official has knowledge that the team had six players participating, but cannot get the clock stopped. The ruling is a T is called even though the official didn't get the clock stopped in time. The ball became dead with the official's knowledge, not when the whistle blew. Therefore, in this case, the TO was granted, even though the whistle didn't blow in time.

Good point but wrong sitch. The difference is that the act happened by the 6th man coming on the floor and becoming a legal player. Its a automatic "T" once its recognized by the official(s) so the ball became dead on the recognition of the infraction (T foul) by the official. The foul causes the ball to become dead not the whistle in this case play.

There's nothing in the rules that states the ball becomes dead on the request of the T/O. It can't because we have to be sure that we can grant it. Once we realize we can grant and blow our whistle the ball becomes dead on the whistle. What if the ball is loose and the coach calls an excessive T/O, times runs out. Are you going back and whacking the coach because you heard the request? I don't think you would. Therefore if you can't go back and get this then you can't possible say that the T/O is granted mentally first then by the whistle. I think case play 10.1.7 is pretty clear on when it is or isn't a "T"

Originally Posted by M&M

If it's a legal request, per 5-8-3, we're supposed to grant it. If it's not a legal request, then we're supposed to ignore it.

This statement solidifies why you can't say that the request is the key to the "T". Very simply because you have to make sure it is a legal request. It sounded like you were saying the the request would be "T" if it was excessive but only if the request was legal. If you were correct why would it matter since it was a request? It has to be when we physically grant it and not when we mentally grant it. The ball isn't dead until the whistle blows when granting the T/O.