[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress:
[b]Originally posted by Warren Willson:
Part(a) of Jones' ruling was that having entered the dugout, the runner is still allowed to return if he does so within a reasonable time period. That is the part of the ruling that was "new" to me. It may or may not be consistent with Wendelstadt's Baseball America quote; I don't have that.

Childress: Warren, you have it because it's the first post in the thread "My Answer POTEOD #12."

*** Thanks, Carl. I will now save that thread for the Baseball America quote.

Willson: The real issue is entwined with Part(a). We have discussed Relaxed vs Unrelaxed action on this and other boards many times before. I seem to remember one momentous discussion involving yourself and a number of other posters on one side, and Bob Pariseau and myself on the other. It goes to the question in one of the posts above of exactly when does Relaxed action ever become Unrelaxed action again?

Bob Pariseau and I were aghast that a runner could run past a subsequent base (or two), and then turn around and attempt to return to a missed base and as long as the runner and the ball arrived in the vicinity of the "missed" base at approximately the same time, the action was UNRELAXED regardless of how far ahead the runner had been. The runner MUST BE TAGGED.

Childress: Yes, though I don't remember Pariseau. I hold with the point that -- regardless of how far a runner goes toward the next base -- the defense must tag him if he's trying to return to a missed base. For example, that could happen often in a rundown:

Play: 2 outs. A slow R1 goes to third on a single while a speedy B1 has rounded second without touching it. The defense is keeping R1 (now at third) close while trying to tag out B1 between second and third. If he is finally tagged out heading back to second, the pro umpire will not allow an appeal. If the runner at third managed to get home before B1 was tagged out trying to return to his missed ball, that run will count.

*** If I remember correctly, Carl, the two plays that caused the most discussion were (a)R2 misses 3rd and reaches home, before retouching and heading back to 3rd, arriving with the ball at the base and F5 proclaiming "He missed the bag!" - TAG PLAY REQUIRED (Unrelaxed Action), and (b) R3 leaves early and reaches home, before retouching and heading back to 3rd, arriving with the ball at the base and F5 proclaiming "He left early!" - APPEAL PLAY (Relaxed action, unmistakable act of appeal). I never quite gathered the difference. Now I believe I do.

Willson: In my post to which Jim objected, I simply applied this principle by saying that when the runner returns from the dugout with the obvious intention of correcting his baserunning error, the action again becomes UNRELAXED and the runner must be tagged. This is the same principle, as I understand it, that would be applied at a missed 2nd base if the runner was between 3rd and 2nd on his way back.

Childress: In my post (where I agreed with you and Jim corrected me) I made it clear I believed the action became unrelaxed when the runner comes out of the dugout. That was my impression of what Cris Jones had ruled. I agree with you it is the most reasonable way to approach that situation, if it should ever occur again.

It is, after all, consistent with play at the other bases!

*** I thought so too, Carl. It did seem to fly in the face of Evans' on OBR 7.10(d), however, which allowed an appeal any time after the runner leaves the home plate cutout. From Jim's explanation I can now see that this should NOT be applied the same at all of the bases. I just wish he had come up with a J/R quote in support of that position on Relaxed vs Unrelaxed action, even if the distinction now seems obvious when read in conjunction with OBR 7.10!

Willson: Can UNRELAXED ACTION be reinstated by the actions of the runner, after the runner has passed a succeeding base? Earlier concensus on McGriff's and UT (with Pariseau and Willson dissenting) was YES!

Childress: Isn't the point, rather, that when a runner is still circling the bases, the action cannot be relaxed: If he can be tagged out, that means the participants (defense/runner) never "relaxed." Consequently, there is no reinstatement since it was never "uninstated." (Is that a word?)

*** Of course I understand the distinction you are making, Carl. The question Pariseau and I posed was at what point did the action ever become Relaxed? After the next base was reached? After a subsequent base?

If the batter-runner had missed 1st base (no overrun) on his way to 3rd, and being reminded of his error by the 3rd base coach heads back in the direction of 1st, when does the defensive right to appeal the miss during live action cease? When the B-R passes 2nd on his way back? When he reaches the cutout at 1st? When? If he is between 3rd and 2nd, would you deny a live action appeal and require the defense to tag the runner, simply because the runner was still circulating?

Suppose it was 2nd base that was missed by R1, and he had reached and passed home plate before returning to the base path; would you allow an appeal at 2nd on R1 now retreating but still between 3rd and home? Would you require a tag if R1 got back past 3rd on his way to correct the error? Or would you allow an appeal right up until R1 and the ball were together in the 2nd base cutout area and then require a tag?

These are some of the questions that Pariseau and I posed in the original discussion. On my reading of your statement above you would never allow a live action appeal under OBR while ever the subject runner was off a base and circulating in either direction! Is that the case?

Willson: Can UNRELAXED ACTION be reinstated by the actions of a runner, after the runner has missed home plate and entered the dugout? Apparently NO, according to you and Jim Porter in this thread (with Willson no longer dissenting, just confused).

Childress: I think that Cris and Wendelstedt simply recognize that when a runner returns from the dugout, all action concerning him had ceased; it has by definiton become "relaxed." In other words home plate, like the very rich, is different.


*** Accepted and agreed, Carl. I think we are now also entitled to use Evans' finer distinction of the edge of the home plate cutout as a guide for determining an "immediate" return to a missed home plate under Unrelaxed action, don't you? I now believe that there is no conflict between this delimiter and the Jones PBUC ruling about returning from the dugout.

I think we are almost there, except for deciding the question of a delimiter on Relaxed vs Unrelaxed action on the base paths at 1st (not overrun), 2nd and 3rd.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Papa C, but I believe your position is that distance isn't really an issue, and no matter how far the runner has advanced from the missed base, as long as he is attempting to advance or return the action will always be UNRELAXED.

On the other hand, I believe Jim is interpreting J/R as saying action is RELAXED and will STAY RELAXED once the runner has left the vicinity of the missed base, irrespective of how far they get and whether or not the runner is returning UNLESS the runner again reaches the vicinity of the missed base (ie the cutout area) as the ball arrives. In that latter case the action reverts to UNRELAXED action requiring a tag out, but only at 2nd and 3rd base or 1st base (when not a simple overrun).

Please, either Papa C or JimP, correct me if I am misreading your positions here. I should add, BTW, that my personal leaning is strongly toward the second position, out of pure "gut instinct" because I don't have the J/R to interrogate on the subject for myself!