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Originally Posted by IUgrad92
1) Is an unsporting act different from an unsporting foul?
2) So how do you get around this? Fighting = flagrant act. A flagrant foul is either of violent or savage in nature. So how would an elbow/shove qualify? Intentional, yes, I can live with that, but I think you and Chuck have elevated this 'act' beyond intentional to flagrant. True?
3) JR - I know you've re-iterated more than once that the Lawrence kid admitted to previously elbowing the Wichita kid coming up the court. Fine, not arguement there. But when he says that, does he mean he nudged him with his elbow, or did he mean he got in a full shot to the ribs?? I have no clue. All I know is that I've heard many 12-14 year old kids say they've aced a test, but in actuality they only got an 80%. So when kids say something to me, I've learned to ask more questions and only then do I get the "real" picture.
Secondly, why did he elbow the Wichita kid? Maybe it was in retaliation from the Wichita kid reaching in/grabbing his arm on that rebound?? Possible.....
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1) Basically the same with different verbiage.
2) IU, you're looking at the wrong rule. Fighting
is a flagrant act, but it doesn't necessarily have to include a violent or savage act though. The rules say different. Chuck and I are both using NFHS rule 4-18-
FIGHTING. The NCAA rule is basically the same. Those rules say that instigating a fight is a flagrant act that is considered as a fighting foul, even though the act of instigation may have involved little or no actual physical contact.
3) IU, I can't answer any of those questions without guessing, and from a referee's standpoint, we shouldn't really ever be guessing. The only facts that I'm aware of are that the Lawrence kid admitted to previous elbows(which don't show on the tape as far as I can see because of the camera angle), and that the Lawrence kid pushed the Wichita kid and then immediately got thrown-down and beat down. The elbows really don't figure in the final call anyway; the officials must have missed them as they were not called. So.....as an official, you have to rule on the push followed by a beating. Imo the push was deliberate and directly instigated the fight, and the NFHS and NCAA rules that I cited now become the pertinent and applicable rules to be used. Others don't agree that the push instigated the fight. Well, I don't agree with them either but they're certainly entitled to their (wrong
) opinion.