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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
4) Could you please cite a rules definition that says unsporting acts are by definition non-contact technical fouls? I'm certainly not aware of anything in the rules that says that. Read NFHS rule 4-19-4. It completely contradicts that statement.
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See
4-19-14: An
unsporting foul is a
noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical or dishonorable conduct.
4-19-4, as you reference, is defining a flagrant foul (personal or technical), not an unsporting foul.
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Or are you saying that you think that kicking or kneeing an opponent without the ball isn't an unsporting act?
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Flagrant, yes...unsporting, no.
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Also see casebook play 10.4.5SitA- that talks about a fight. Note that both players charged with fighting in that case play received flagrant personal fouls.
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That backs up my claim...they got flagrant personal fouls, not an unsporting (technical noncontact) foul.
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
And you are also saying that it then can't be fighting under the retaliation clause? You're kidding, right? To have fighting, it doesn't matter whether the ball is live or dead. Says so right in R4-18- Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live". Whatever point you're trying to make here isn't covered by any rule that I'm aware of.
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The retaliation clause is there to cover someone provoking a fight with words or gestures....a noncontact action that causes a fight..
True, the ball can be live or dead. But retaliation to an foul that was not considered a fighting action on it's own doesn't make the original foul a fight.
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
5) Yup, if you consider that hard foul as instigating a fight, it suresheck does become fighting if the person that was fouled retaliated by fighting. Says so right in NFHS 4-18-2 and NCAA 4-23-3(b). Sure it's a judgement call, but I don't believe in letting a kid that started a fight just skate because he happened to get the sh!t kicked out of him.
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4-28-2 doesn't say that at all. It say that an unsporting act (defined in 4-19-14) can be considered fighting if it leads to a fight. It says NOTHING about a personal foul morphing into fighting if the fouled player takes offense by fighting. If that push/elbow was so vicious or aggressive that it could be considered fighting, the orignal foul should be a flagrant personal foul to begin with....it wasn't. The first player actually has to do more then push/elbow another player during a live ball for it to be a fight.
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
6) I disagree vehemently. Attempting to strike somebody with a fist is no different at all, by the rules that I've cited, than pushing somebody if both acts lead directly to a fight breaking out.
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You must have a lot of ejections if you consider an elbow and push to be a fight.