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This has become quite a firestorm. Makes it interesting. I'm really not trying to piss anyone off and I understand that these are a case by cases basis, I thought the whole point of this thread was to have people share their method of discernment between an intentional and non-intentional foul. I will humbly listen to those people who are willing to offer their own experience and guidance - it's a little more difficult to humbly accept insults. Clearly you need only watch a few close games to realize that the letter of the rule which JR has quoted ( "An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting") is not always enforced otherwise everyone of those fouls at the end of the game would be intentional fouls. That's what we're talking about here is how do officials decide which call to make in that specific circumstance.
Jurassic - my attempt to better understand the practical nature of this situation has not been improved based on your own contradictions:
IN YOUR FIRST RESPONSE TO ME YOU SAID:
"Note the part of R4-19-3 that says the act may or may NOT be premeditated and that it ISN'T based the severity of the contact"
AND YOU ALSO POINT OUT THIS FACT:
(2)Trying to hurt/punish an opponent is a FLAGRANT foul. Completely different animal, and defined as such in the rules.
THEN YOU RESPOND TO CHUCK WITH THIS:
"If the defender puts a dribbler in the 3rd. row while making a "token swipe at the ball", then are you trying to tell me that's a "non-intentional foul"?"
WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON APPROACHING THE POINT OF USING FLAGRANT FOUL AND INTENTIONAL FOUL IN INAPPROPRIATE CONTEXT.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THESE STATEMENTS ARE A CONTRIDICTION INDICATING THAT IN YOUR MIND SEVERITY IS A CONSIDERATION.
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ON A COUPLE OF OCCASIONS YOU POINT OUT THAT THE RULE STATES:
"An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting"
WHICH YOU CLAIM CONTRADICTS MY SAYING:
"Based on what you're telling me in this post, you would call an intentional foul anytime a foul is committed at the end of the game by the trailing team if their intent is to commit a foul to stop the clock."
TO WHICH YOU RESPOND WITH:
"I sureashell also NEVER said that I would always call an intentional foul under those circumstances."
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Jurassic,
You've been a ref for 45 years so I know you know what you're talking about. I'm not debating that you're a good ref. I really would just like the benefit of your experience as opposed to the benefit of you reading the rule book to me. My only point in all of this is that I nearly positive you've had fouls made at the end of the game to stop the clock that you have not called as intentional (when the act was a foul committed for the purpose of stopping the clock) and I'm almost sure that there have been some that you have called intentional. The rule which defines intentional foul is of some help however there is some judgement applied to it. As a rookie, I'm trying to visualize situations before I'm in them so that I can do my best to be prepared to make the appropriate call. I'm using the case book and the rule book in my preparations, but even looking at the statements I've quoted above, this is a gray area and I'd appreciate your thought process, first and foremost in which I'm sure is your thorough knowledge of what the rule states. You like to point out the section of the rulebook, but in black-and-white, essentially mandates that these fouls we're talking about at the end of the game committed for the purpose of stopping the clock be called intentional every time. You're experience is what gives you the judgement to determine when to stick by the letter of the law and when to allow these fouls to be deemed unintentional. My comments are not meant to criticize referees but more to try and identify the gray area so I can better understand its shades and applications when I'm on the floor.
A lot of the others on here have seen it clear to offer their criteria (grabbing the jersey, fouls on the back, etc.). Even you point out the POE criteria but it doesn't seem to me that those superscede the letter of the rule stating that a foul made to stop the clock is an intentional foul. How do you decide when not to call it as such?
I'm sorry for pissing everyone off. I'm really not that argumentative. This is an issue that's frustrated me as a player and a fan before ever becoming involved with officiating. I think my understanding is a bit better than when the discussion started - thanks to those who offered sincere perspective on the topic.
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