[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: I think the rule book is very clear that if B touches a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, the next down will be a first down...for someone! My ruling (A, 1-10) is based upon this rule (5-1-2f) and Football Fundamental II-3. So, in my estimation it could never be 4th down if the given play occurred on third down. It would have to be a first down, and you clearly can't award the ball to B. In order to be consistent, that would also be true if the play occurred on 4th down.

On a related topic based upon your post, the Federation is pretty indiscriminate about how they use the word "possession." Whereas the NCAA has a defined term "belongs to" which signifies temporary custody (at least) of the ball, the Fed doesn't. However, the biggest shortcoming of the Fed's definition of "possession" is that it only refers to a live ball. There is no concept (defined) of possession of a dead ball. I think that most of us have gotten by that with an understanding that legal possession of a dead ball belongs to the team next entitled to put the ball in play by snap or free kick. But that's nowhere stated in the Fed rules. For example, K's scrimmage kick untouched by R is rolling beyond the NZ. K picks it up. Who has possession? Well, when the down ended K held and controlled the ball. By Fed definition, he was in possession when the down ended. But...if there was a foul by R during this scrimmmage kick, we treat it as a PSK foul, right? And aren't fouls by R during a scrimmage kick PSK-enforceable only when "...K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends?" (NF 2-16-2g) Do you see the inconsistency? I've already heard some veteran officials say that if R fouls during such a play, they would treat it as a foul during a loose ball play because K did have possession when the down ended. I think we know that's incorrect, but how could you prove it to them? In actuality, the wording of the rules supports their position. Personally, I think the Fed needs to define "legal possession" as we did above, and use that phrase in its criteria for PSK enforcement.

I know I've rambled a bit from the original question, but I still think it will be A's ball 1-10.

I am going to start this out with my #1 question; if team A throws an incomplete forward pass on 4th down, who is in possession at the end of that down?? Now that you have your answer, we’ll come back to that later.

I totally understand FB Fundamental II-3, which says “If R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, a new series will be awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down…” If he had just fallen on the ball, they would be in possession at the end of the down, and therefore it would be A’s ball 1-10. I initially thought the same as you, but I just don’t know if they are in possession at the end of the down if they threw an incomplete pass on 4th down.
That is exactly what they did, throw an incomplete pass on 4th down. It just so happened that the incomplete pass was after a muffed SK by R beyond the NZ. I totally understand that if this was a 3rd down, it would be a 1-10 for team A, and that is kind of weird that it may different if it was 3rd down instead of 4th down. That is not really logical, but do you see my rationale that the down never ended, so when A threw the incomplete pass, 4th down is now over and they did not reach the LTG? Now that does not matter, if they are in possession at the end of that down. The problem is, that down ended with an incomplete pass, I just don’t know if team A technically is.