Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hensley
Quote:
Originally posted by cbfoulds
Not that it makes a bit of difference, since in all but the rareset TWP, you can pretend you don't know this and officiate the play like it WAS a "force". You can even SAY that BR is forced at 1st, and only umpires will know that you are being ignorant; and most of them won't care. Of course, when the TWP actually happens in front of you, you'll blow the ruling; but, again, only umpires will know.
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Would you be so kind as to describe the third world play that illustrates the flaw in saying the batter runner is forced to 1B?
If I quoted Jim Evans making reference to the batter runner being "forced" to 1B, would you then consider Mr. Evans to be "ignorant" of the rules?
Have you considered that the whole "batter runner is/isn't forced to 1B" debate might just be an issue of meaningless semantics, simply a "how many umpires can dance on the head of a pin" debate?
Or, maybe it's not. What's the play scenario that demonstrates the difference?
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And if I quote J/R that he's NOT forced ...?
Like I've written [twice]: only umpires will know, few of them will care. The vast majority of the time, you bet, meaningless semantics. Occasionally, the semantics will get you going in the wrong direction. The FED casebook "error", seemingly re-instating accidental appeals, notwithstanding a clear statement still in the Rule Book, [which is what started this thread] is IMHO, one of 'em ['tho being "forced" seems irrelevent to the case ruling, the language is in there].
As for a TWP where it matters, some months ago, we thrashed the bejesus out of one on this very board: if memory serves, you were "there". To wit:
B gets a hit, makes it to 1st & touches the base safely; for some unknowable reason, he "retreats" back toward, but not all the way to home. Since there is no "force" on BR @ 1st, therefore no "force" to be "reinstated", IN THIS SITCH, BR must be tagged on his person to be out - tagging the base won't do. Furthermore, [and perhaps the only place where it could actually matter] a run scoring from third
before BR is out in these circumstances would score, even if the tag [after the touch & retreat] was the 3d out. [3d out recorded on BR AFTER he touches 1st base]
There may be others; they are all TWP's, I've personally never witnessed one where it makes the slightest difference,
except semanticly, which I guess includes simply getting the rule right. I'd almost bet that Evans and Roeder haven't [seen an actual play in a game where it makes a difference], either; and their experience is, obviously, far broader than mine.
Dave:
OK, I should have included the words: "..for the purposes of this {"force play"} rule..."; my point was [is] that the BR is a special critter for several rules-related differences from a regular runner - this is one of them. The FED rule indicates that the term runner generically includes 2 kinds of players: the BR and
..any runner who occupies a base. Which references my second bullet: the BR is not "forced" from a base he "occupies", a requirement of a force play.
[Edited by cbfoulds on Mar 5th, 2005 at 05:27 AM]