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Mark, you should not run Ronnie down as it is obvious to me that he is honestly trying to find out 2 things.
1: "live ball contact can never be called a Technical foul"' Is this generic statement true?, and
2: what kind of situations would apply per rule 4-19-13. He gave some situations which include contact and asked the question "Why can't we exercise unsporting foul option afforded us per rule 4-19-13.
Answer 1: I believe the statement is true. It only seems false when we are talking actions called fighting. (More on fighting below)
Answer to 2: How to apply the definition given in rule 4-19-13 is explained in Rule 10 for teams, players, and bench personnel but the rule book also says that the rule could apply to other acts not listed.
The answer to Ronnie's question is that my only way to exclude the act as a Technical foul is to find a specific rule placing it in another category.
For Ronnies swinging the elbows question I replied earlier it is always a violation even though so agressive (or intimidating if you wish) that it would cause injury to another player if contacted and gave Rule 4-24-8 which specifically states such. A1 is guilty whether he is in player control, another teammate has the ball, or the other team is in control.
From the discussion by JR and MTD they both agree to the vagueness of what constitutes a fight and brought up several case book citations. My comments follow:
Case 4.18.2: The dunk (made basket) caused the ball to become dead so the official's whistle in this case is of no consequence. Both the taunt and the retaliatory punch were during a dead ball. And supposing the taunt by A1 was a finger pointed at B1 or even a finger poke to the chest of B1 the final ruling is still the same. Fight per 4-18 and 10-3-9.
Case 10.4.4 Sit A is not confusing at all to me.
Fighting is a flagrant act. 4-18; 4-19-4.
Fighting can occur during a live or dead ball. 4-18
Flagrant fouls are personal or technical fouls. 4-19-4
If personal: contact ocurred during live ball. 4-19-1
If Technical: contact during dead ball 4-19-5c,
noncontact fouls 4-19-5b, 10-3, or
acts which causes a fight in retaliation 4-18-2
Punches during live ball are flagrant personal fouls and called a fight. Punches during a dead ball are flagrant technical fouls and called a fight. A finger poke (with or without contact) which causes another player to retaliate by throwing a punch (whther contact or not) is by definition a fight also and if you want I will go through each scenario possible. In every case I can come to the conclusion that contact during the live ball is never a technical foul.
Ronnie, if you wish to go through a bunch of scenarios either on this forum or through e-mails I am happy to do so.
Either way it is best discussed one at a time (so i don't have to write a book each time I post).
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