Quote:
Originally posted by ronny mulkey
MTD,
I'm not either. As a matter of fact, I want to be able to handle trouble IF it presents itself without getting tied up by generic statements like "you cannot have a technical foul if contact occurs during a live ball" unless there is a way around it. i.e. unsporting technical foul. Ignore the contact, penalize the act.
You sound frustrated with me, but I did notice that you did not imply that Bob Jenkins was inexperienced or looking for trouble when he expressed his opinion. I think that he stated that there is flexibility there to exercise this option. Is it only me that frustrates you?
I am trying to understand your viewpoint by asking questions and if they offend you, I'll quit asking YOU these questions. Or, if as I suspect, you can't answer them, I'll quit asking YOU these questions. But, you have never told me why I can't exercise this unsporting foul option afforded me by rule 4.19.13. When people like JR, Bob Jenkins, TH, Mick or you put forth an opinion, I am going to set up and take notice. But, don't expect me to jump off a cliff just because you do.
More importantly, don't try to shout out my opinions with weak attempts at questioning my experiences or motives. My experiences may be suspect but they do involve a lot of years. My motives are not questionable.
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Ronny:
You can't use NFHS R4-S19-A13, and here is why. The original play of this thread reads as follows: "A1 rebounds missed shot by team B. While in the backcourt, B1 is "smothering" (no contact) A1. A1 "chins" the ball and in frustration intentionally elbows B1. The action was not considered flagrant, but the calling official issued a Technical Foul for unsporting conduct, even though this was a CONTACT foul."
A1 intentionally hit B1 with his elbow. The amount of time from the moment that A1 started to swing his elbow at B1 and the moment A1's elbow made contact with B1's chest (I am making an educated assumption that B1 was hit in his chest, because if he was hit in his face A1's foul should have been a flagrant personal foul, but that is another thread) was no more than a second. You have to look at the entire play. If you want to apply NFHS R4-S19-A13 to the time period starting with A1 swinging his elbow until just before his elbo makes contact with B1's chest, then you also must charge A1 with a second technical foul for illegally contacting B1 while the ball was dead, because the ball became dead with the foul under NFHS R4-S19-A13, and you cannot have it both ways.
You want to divide a one second play into two seperate acts and you cannot do it. As I said before, if you cannot explain it do not call it. The rules define A1's actions as an intentional personal foul. The rules do not allow for anything more.
You talk about A1 swinging his elbows in an intimidating manner so that B1 will not attempt to play defense against him. I quote from my post in this thread of Feb. 25/Fri.(10:22pmEST), 2005:
"The situation you described: A1 swinging his elbow and missing B1 is not that same as A1 swinging his elbow and NOT missing B1. In the later, A1 is guilty of a personal foul: common (player control), intentional, or flagrant. In the former, the official has to decide if A1's act is a violation (excessively swinging his elbows), and I should add here that excessively swinging one's elbows without making contact was made an infraction (orginally a violation in both NFHS and NCAA, then a technical foul in NFHS and still a violation in NCAA, and then back to a violation in both NFHS and NCAA) because it was an act that would intimidate a defender from attempting to play defense for fear of getting hit by the offensive player's elbows. If, in the official's judgement, A1 was attempting to hit B1 in the face with his elbow but missed, then A1 is guilty of a flagrant technical foul. My question to you is to tell the group why this is a flagrant technical foul."
Furthermore, Daryl Long has quoted NFHS R4-S24-A8 as the rule that applies to your situation when A1 swings his elbows in a way to keep an opponent from playing defense. You cannot apply NFHS R4-S19-A13 to your situation because R4-S24-A8 addresses that specific situation.
I repeat my advice to you, do not go looking for trouble where there is none. We have ample rules to apply to the situation being discussed.
Lets not forget that if A1 intentionally swings his elbow in an attempt to hit B1 in the face, we know have a flagrant foul. If contact is made, the foul is a personal foul, and if there is no contact it is a technical foul, but in both cases the foul is a flagrant foul.
MTD, Sr.
[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Feb 27th, 2005 at 11:33 AM]