Quote:
Originally posted by ronny mulkey
With all due respect to TH and MTD, I think that an unsporting T CAN be called if you are penalizing the "unfair, unethical or dishonorable conduct" that precedes the contact. This has nothing to do with contact (even if it occurs because of this act)or excessive elbows.
For example, if a player intentionally planted an elbow against someone's face, you would probably eject? What if this same action had missed? Ejection? Violation? You know the play where the player swings his elbow around in the air in an intimidating manner? Violation only?
Consider an off ball situation where opponents are in a joust, and one of them ends it by just shoving the other player off. That's a T and it not because of the contact but because of the act itself.
One player pokes another in the chest with his finger in a menancing manner. Forget the contact and penalize the dishonorable conduct. Just because an act involves an elbow, I am not limiting myself only to an excessive elbow call and the resulting penalties.
Before you jump all over me for my opinion and ask for Rules support, please see 4-19-13.
IMHO
Mulk
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If you use only 4-19-13 then there are a lot of things you could apply. But when consulting additional rules you may find they fall under another category. Rule 10 describes the criteria we use to define such "unfair, unethical or dishonorable conduct.
Rule 10-3-8 concerns TEAM unsporting fouls.
Rule 10-3-7 concerns PLAYER unsporting fouls.
Rule 10-4-1 concerns BENCH unsporting fouls.
Intentional elbow to face? My options are:
1 Intentional PERSONAL foul.
2. Flagrant PERSONAL foul. Ejection. (I would call this one)
Excessive swinging elbows but miss?
Yes this is a vioaltion ONLY.
Quoting Rule 4-24-8 It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when:
a. ....
b. The AGRESSIVENESS with which the arms and elbows are swung COULD CAUSE INJURY to another player if contacted.
Using this description as a basis, an official will promptly and unhesitatingly call such action with arms and elbows a VIOLATION.
As a side note if you determine that the excessively swinging elbow constituted FIGHTING (10-3-8, 4-18-1&2) whether there was contact or not then assess the flagrant Technical Foul. It also fits defintion given in 4-19-13.
Don't know what you mean by jousting so let me respond with several scenarios. If jousting means contact by both players then since a live ball it is not a T unless the jousting is so severe you determine them to be fighting then assess both a flagrant T. If unsure to call it a fight yet you feel actions to be so severe to warrant ejection then call a Double Flagrant PERSONAL foul. Otherwise you have a double person foul.
If the jousting involves both engaged verbal sparring then by all means this fits the definition of unsporting technicals on both players. If your whistle was before the final shove then you have to assess an intentional technical foul which also results in ejection of that player. If the first player taunts verbally causing second to shove him away the you have an unsporting Techical on first player and an intentional foul on second
The finger poke again fits the definition of Unsporting technical as that is action which fall under 10-3-7b & c.