Thread: 5 Second count?
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Old Thu May 17, 2001, 04:48pm
Mark Padgett Mark Padgett is offline
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Join Date: Aug 1999
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I'm not going to debate whether you should be strict on your calls at this level or give a kid a do-over, because I am on record for making the call, then explaining it. My reasons for this have been stated many times. I do disagree with those that feel the ball hitting the ref caused a violation. I do not think stating that the ref is part of the floor for these purposes in incorrect. Here's why:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I always thought ref was considered part of floor.
An official is not "part of the floor" per se. That's probably a bad cliche to use. An official is either inbound or OOB based on where he is standing. If he's OOB and the ball touches him, the last player to touch the ball has violated.
True, but only if the player was inbounds. If the ball started OOB and was always OOB, there is no inbounds violation (there may have been a 5 second violation in this case, however).

If so, can B1 attempt to throw to B2 (OOB) and hit ref, then pick ball up and reattempt to get to B2 (if enough time is left) or throw ball in (assuming ball remained OOB)?
No. A violation has occurred when the ball hits the official. While the ball can be bounce passed to a teammate OOB, it cannot touch anything else that is OOB, whether it be a wall, a door, an official or a basket support. It's no different than a BC pass by A1 hitting an official in the FC, bouncing back into the BC and being retrieved by A1. It's a BC violation, even though the pass was meant for A2.[Edited by BktBallRef on May 16th, 2001 at 11:50 PM]
I disagree totally. No violation occurred when the ball hit the ref if the ref was OOB. In the backcourt situation, the violation occurs not when the ball hits the ref (yes, I know that's not the point of the quote) but because when it hits the ref the ball gains backcourt status and then is touched by A1. Hitting the ref while the ref is OOB means the ball just retains OOB status. It's the same theory if the ball is passed from inbounds and hits a ref OOB. The ball is then ruled OOB because it gained OOB status when it hit the ref.

To me, the player hitting the OOB ref with the ball is no different that if he bounced it OOB before the inbound pass.

BTW - I know I've told this before, but it seems appropriate here. When my son, Josh, was a junior, his team was ahead by just a few points late in the game. The other team had just scored to close within 4. My son, who is also a referee (this is important), went to inbound the ball. All his teammates went downcourt, just like in the case above. Josh knew his team was out of timeouts. The official had started his 5 count. Josh then turned to him and said, "There's something on the ball." The official blew his whistle and held up his hand for an official's timeout. He then put his hands out to receive the ball. Josh, however, wiped the ball on his shorts and said, "There, I think I got it all." He then bounced the ball to the official. Meanwhile, his coach was able to yell at his teammates and get them back into the backcourt.

After the game, I asked Josh if, as a referee, he would ever fall for a trick like that. He replied, "Not now."
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