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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Where is our physicist in residence when you need him? JugglingReferee, you claim that the referee cannot have definite knowledge that the tap took less than 0.3 seconds. 0.3 seconds is the empirically determined minimum time it takes to catch and shoot.
A tap, on the other hand, is "the contacting of the ball with any part of the player's hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket." In other words, you've got a ball in the air and you are striking it to redirect it. Assuming the player does not do a one-handed catch and release (which can be done in 0.3 seconds), you've got to consider the tap to be pretty much instantaneous. At the very least you cannot logically consider that it takes 0.3 seconds or longer.
NV asserts that counting the goal is within the spirit of the rule that allows the referee to "correct obvious timing errors." I agree with him. I can't find it at the moment, but as I recall the statement about an official's count being definite knowledge is not meant to indicate that it's the only way an official can have definite knowledge.
For example, if the two scorekeepers disagree on how many fouls a player has, they are allowed to correct this error by resorting to memory or logic to acheive "definite knowledge." It's not an exact analog, but does demonstrate that the rules writers intended the officials to use all knowledge at their disposal to correct an error.
In every case I can find, points scored during an error or disagreement by an official (correctable error situation, timer/scorer disagree, disqualified player allowed to continue playing), the basket stands.
Case 2.13 is particualarly telling in how the rules committee would think about this. If the signal cannot be heard, and the scorer and timer disagree, the referee will make the final ruling. Unless the referee has definite knowledge to the contrary, the goal shall count if it was successful.
In this case, we have an obvious timing error occurred. The referee is empowered to correct an obvious timing error. By emperical study it is definitely possible to catch and release a try in 0.3 seconds. A tap can definitely be accomplished in much less time since it involves only striking a ball already in the air. The rules committee is definitely in favor of counting the goal when in doubt.
One last thought. What does it mean to correct a timing mistake? It means to make it right, to fix it. Different situations may very well require different actions to correct. Whatever definition you apply, taking away a one-in-a-hundred basket for some mytical do-over is not correcting the mistake. It is making another one.
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Well thought out response.
However.....
Rule 6-7-6- "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when time expires for a quarter or extra period". The horn went and time expired BEFORE the ball was tapped in this particular case. There is NO exception listed at the end of R6-7 that is applicable here- the exceptions listed pertain to a try or tap already in flight when the horn sounds. Rule 5-1-1 also basically says that you can only score with a live ball- NOT a dead ball.
How can you ignore these clearly written rules?
If the horn went, and A2 was then fouled on his tap after the horn went off, would you put A1 on the line for 2 FT's if the tap didn't go in?
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I would only have a problem with this IF there was an obvious timing error.
If there is an obvious timing error, then has the quarter really ended?
If the timer mistakenly allows the clock to run during a time out and time expires before they return to the floor, is the quarter over? How about if it runs during a free throw? So why would it be over during a throw-in?
If it happened during the time out, I'm gonna put some time back on the clock then we resume play. I'll also count on not going varisty this year for my lack of "clock awareness".
If it happens during a free throw, I will put time back on the clock, and may even give the thrower another throw if I think the horn disconcerted him. (okay, you may have me here on the do-over thing
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In this situation, I can see no clear way of making it right without counting the basket.