Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I disagree with the assertion that the contact must be a technical because the ball is dead.
10-3-8 (Personal Technical) ...Intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul.
4-19-5-c (A technical foul is: ) An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter.
4-19-1 Note Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.
These seem pretty clear that a contact foul during a dead ball must be intentional or flagrant to be a technical. 10-3-8 seems to imply that you can have a personal foul during a dead ball which directly contradicts 4-19-1 which requires the ball to be live. But 9-19-1 note states pretty clearly that we should ignore contact during a dead ball unless it's intentional or flagrant.
Of course, this is NFHS and I don't have the NCAA book.
[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Oct 10th, 2004 at 02:26 AM]
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Last night my lovely wife and I worked at the coat check room for our older son's H.S.'s homecoming dance so it was past my bedtime when I made my post last night (actually very early this morning).
The NFHS and NCAA rules are quite clear for this type of play. By definition: a personal foul is illegal contact when the ball is live. That means that, not withstanding the airborne shooter portion of the personal foul definition, a illegal contact when the ball is live is a technical foul.
When this play occurs the official should in this order:
1) Look at the contact as if it happened while the ball was live.
2) The official should then ask the question: Was the contact incidental?
3) If the answer to the question in (3) is yes, then ignore the contact.
4) If the answer to the question is (3) is no, then the contact by definition is a technical foul, and B2 should be charged with a technical foul and Team A should be awarded the appropriate free throws and throw-in with respect to the technical foul.
MTD, Sr.
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MTD, You know, when I was in school I never gave a single thought to the folks who volunteered and made things like homecoming dances possible. Good on ya! I'm sure my bad karma will be amply rewarded as my kids get to be that age.
I cannot speak to NCAA rules, as I am not particularly familiar with them. However, by NFHS I believe that your list is incorrect. Turning to this years case book (Which I got in the mail just yesterday...finally. I was absolutely giddy
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4.19.5 SITUATION: A1 is fouled by B1. A1 subsequently pushes B1. RULING: If a foul is called on A1, it must be either an intentional or flagrant technical. If it is ruled flagrant, A1 must be disqualified. If A1's contact during a dead ball was neither intentional nor flagrant, it should have been ignored (1-19-1 Note; 10-3-9)
The original foul by B1 obviously gives us our dead ball situation. Once it's dead, the ruling states quite clearly what I posited earlier: unless the foul is intentional or flagrant, it should be ignored.
10.3.8 SITUATION: B1 fouls A1 during an unsuccessful try. While the calling official is reporting the foul, A1 pushes B1 into another player, RULING: Intentional contact while the ball is dead constitutes an intentional technical foul. If other dead-ball contact is not intentional or flagrant, it should be ignored....
Again, unless it is intentional or flagrant, it should be ignored.
I believe your list would be correct if it read like this:
1) The official should ask the question: Was the contact incidental?
2) If the answer to the question in (1) is yes, then ignore the contact.
3) If the answer to the question is (1) is no, then the official should ask the questions: was the contact intentional or flagrant?
4) If the answer to the qustions in (3) is no, then the contact should be ignored.
5) If the answer to either question in (3) is yes, then the contact, by definition, is a technical foul, and B2 should be charged with a technical foul and Team A should be awarded the appropriate free throws and throw-in with respect to the technical foul. If it is ruled flagrant, the fouler must also be disqualified.