[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by greymule
Support this with a rule or ruling.

I said from the beginning that this might be a test, which implies that it also might not be. I said if the touch of 1B is indeed removed, which means I don't know whether it is or not.

Of course there's nothing in the rule book about "removing the touch." I never said there was.

Really?

as defined by the rules

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that an interpretation contradicts the letter of the rules.

I don't have an ax to grind either way, but I still don't think we have a firm answer as to whether or not a BR who touches 1B and then retreats toward home has to be tagged. I don't see an answer in J/R or PBUC or BRD. And I've heard logical reasoning both ways.

Well, lets try out the "logic":

Can we agree with the following statements-
1.) By Rule Book definition, BR to 1st base is not a "Force Play";
2.) The rules governing the put out of BR at 1st decree that BR may be put out by tagging the base BEFORE BR touches the base;
3.) There are specific rules governing runner being out: on appeal for missing/ leaving early @ 1st, overrunning/ sliding & failing to return immediately; none of which mention a "force" being "reinstated";
4.) There are specific rules governing certain occurences at 2nd & third (& home) which ARE "force plays" by rule, and/or which DO mention the reinstatement of the "force" at bases OTHER than 1st;
5.) Absent a "Force Play" or a specific rule allowing a runner to be put out by the defense merely tagging the base, the runner himself must be tagged - tagging the bag won't do [ ex: BR tries to stretch a single to 2d, defense tags the base ahead of BR's arrival, but makes no effort to tag the runner - runner is safe.]?

If we agree on those, then I can't see why we are not "100% sure": if BR "touches 1st base" before being put out, but for some ineffable reason retreats toward Home, BR MUST BE TAGGED to complete the out [unless something else that makes BR out by rule (abandoning baseline, etc.) happens].

Now, it is worth acknowledging that such scenarios will happen rarely, if ever. And from a practical perspective, it is useful [and even customary] to regard BR as "forced" at 1st base.

But when/ if such a thing does happen, it will be important to "get it right" to correctly rule on the 3rd Out/ does the run score? issue. SINCE: BR to 1st is not a "force", and IF BR is put out for any reason AFTER touching the base, RUNS SCORE which cross the plate before the put out happens, even if BR is the 3rd Out.

I have yet to hear or read a LOGICAL argument for there being any force or reinstated force at 1st base.

Accepting that you merely proposed that the scenario which opened this thread MIGHT be a test of the "reinstated force" theory, I suggest that it has been adequately demonstrated that this is NOT such a test; and in the absence of any citation to a "rule or ruling" supporting the "reinstated force/ removed touch" theory [as called for by another poster], any reasonable person would be "100% convinced".

But, hey, some folks are just hardheads.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 5th, 2004 at 02:31 PM]