Swoopes unhappy with WNBA refs

OverAndBack

Sorry, I wasn't intending it to be a discourse on the validity of non-officials' views on officiating or of anyone knowing their place in the world.

My point was - "Why should there be two sets of rules, one for 'star' players and one for the rank and file?"

Swoopes (and she's not the only one) seems to think that as a veteran player, a name player, if there's contact, she should get the call to go her way more often, especially if it's against a 'no-name' player. I'm sure there are men who feel this way, too.

So I'm just wondering - why should that be? Shouldn't a foul be a foul, whether it's Sheryl Swoopes or Tracy McGrady or Joe Blow on either end?

/idealist

Hawks Coach

I do not agree with the system. I think that it is in place to a degree in the NBA, and especially against the "lesser" teams as well as unknown rookies and bench players. You have to earn your calls in the NBA. And you can also earn your no-calls. I know that others may say we fan-boys just don't understand, but I think it has been clear for years that the NBA does maintain a standard for fouls that is weighted toward the star players.

Again, that is a league driven by a profit motive, and you don't make money if Shaq and Kobe sit due to foul trouble, you do if they can score 25-30 a game, including from the line. Jrut is right that the WNBA doesn't have any stars with the kind of drawing power that would cause this behavior. And that is a positive in my book.

TerpZebra

Originally posted by JRutledge
The officials use the WNBA as a stepping stone to get to the NBA.

Obviously you do not know women's officiating or any WNBA referees. Do not assume that all officials would rather referee the NBA over WNBA.

The referees in the WNBA are just as qualified as the NBA ones.

TerpZebra

whistleone

One thing I picked up at camp was that fans don't pay to see us officiate. They pay to see the players play. We, as officials, need to find the point at which we can call what we feel needs to be called and keep our integrity while allowing the players to do what fans pay to see.

Camron Rust

Most fans and players (the ones that complain) have it all backwards. Those veteran players that seem to get the benefit on the calls aren't being favored by the officials. They're smart players who, over the years, have figured out what the refs call and what it takes to avoid the call or draw the foul. The rookies just don't know where the line is and the "stars" take advantage of that.

JRutledge

Originally posted by TerpZebra

Originally posted by JRutledge
The officials use the WNBA as a stepping stone to get to the NBA.

Obviously you do not know women's officiating or any WNBA referees. Do not assume that all officials would rather referee the NBA over WNBA.

I think you need to read the entire argument. Because the WNBA is used as a stepping stone by the NBA Officiating Program. Whether you realize it or not. The same goes for the NDBL and CBA and the many other Leagues you do not hear about that play pro ball. Of course most WNBA Officials do not want to be in the NBA and realistically, that is not going to happen anyway. There is only one Women in the NBA currently. But it is not a secret that have used WNBA Officials and moved them to the NBA. And why not, they make more money, the league is more secure and the NBA has more notoriety.

Originally posted by TerpZebra
The referees in the WNBA are just as qualified as the NBA ones.

I know that the D1 Women's officials do not have the same amount of experience as the D1 Men's Officials to accomplish the very same levels.

For the record, I know D1 Men's and D1 Women's officials right in my back yard. The fact is that the Men's officials have more years of experience to to the same place as their Women Official counterparts. The fact is that the WNBA is an option for the D1 Women's side. The NBA is not a realistic option for the Men's Officials. They either have to give up college ball and get into the NBA Program to be considered for the NBA. I understand you are sensitive to these issue, but please do not go there with me about what I know about how people get to the NBA or WNBA. I am not at all an expert, but I know the route that officials have taken to get to those levels. You do not have to know anyone to see that. But in my case, I do know many D1 current and past College Officials. And they talk about these very things all the time.

Peace

Hawks Coach

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Most fans and players (the ones that complain) have it all backwards. Those veteran players that seem to get the benefit on the calls aren't being favored by the officials. They're smart players who, over the years, have figured out what the refs call and what it takes to avoid the call or draw the foul. The rookies just don't know where the line is and the "stars" take advantage of that.

I think that is true to an extent. But there are some no-calls that you just shake your head at. I have watched enough NBA to see a difference on similar plays, star gets the call, rookie gets the shrug (if even that).

I've always thought that the more compelling rationalization is that the stars have proven they can make the play, so they get the call. Until refs believe that the rookie's throw would have a reasonable chance without the foul, they won't see the contact as a disadvantage. I don't completely buy this one either, but it is a line of reasoning.

Dan_ref

Originally posted by TerpZebra

Originally posted by JRutledge
The officials use the WNBA as a stepping stone to get to the NBA.

Obviously you do not know women's officiating or any WNBA referees. Do not assume that all officials would rather referee the NBA over WNBA.

Considering the compensation involved alone it's fairly safe to assume that all officials would rather referee the NBA over WNBA. In terms of PAY it's like saying don't assume all triple A umps would rather work in the Majors.

IMO

JRutledge

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I've always thought that the more compelling rationalization is that the stars have proven they can make the play, so they get the call. Until refs believe that the rookie's throw would have a reasonable chance without the foul, they won't see the contact as a disadvantage. I don't completely buy this one either, but it is a line of reasoning.

I admit I do not watch a ton of NBA games during the season. But Shaq has fouled out in the playoffs, he even fouled out in the Finals before. Kobe just this year got T'd up for running his mouth in the Finals. Rasheed (a star) has gotten T'd up every change he can get at times. Rodman got thrown out of games. From a star standpoint, the Pistons had very little stars on their team, but it was Gary Payton looking at officials funny and Karl Malone getting knocked down and no call.

My theory, some of those players did not play very well and are on the slope of their career. I would not expect those players to get calls when they are not playing very well.

Peace

Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by whistleone
One thing I picked up at camp was that fans don't pay to see us officiate. They pay to see the players play. We, as officials, need to find the point at which we can call what we feel needs to be called and keep our integrity while allowing the players to do what fans pay to see.

You can't compare pro ball to amateur(?) ball. The "?" was put in on purpose in the last sentence to cover the NCAA schools that may go over the salary cap. One is a game, and the other one is entertainment.

When you work in the WNBA or the NBA, the league will find your "integrity" point for you. We, as officials, will get told by the league how much contact it is expected should be allowed. Every call that you make will be scrutinized, evaluated and graded. Your "integrity" had better match the league's vision of how the game should be called. If it doesn't , your "integrity" will go buh-bye, along with your a$$. If the WNBA thinks that the contact is getting to be too much on Swoopes- and their other stars-, then they'll let their officials know that they're letting too much go.

Hawks Coach

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You can't compare pro ball to amateur(?) ball. The "?" was put in on purpose in the last sentence to cover the NCAA schools that may go over the salary cap.

I must have missed this news item. When did they institute a salary cap for our esteemed "student" athletes? Must only apply to the mid-major level and below.

Dan_ref

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You can't compare pro ball to amateur(?) ball. The "?" was put in on purpose in the last sentence to cover the NCAA schools that may go over the salary cap.

I must have missed this news item. When did they institute a salary cap for our esteemed "student" athletes? Must only apply to the mid-major level and below.

I believe the salary cap for ncaa players is about $0.

tomegun

Maybe he is talking about the unofficial salary cap 🙂 You know, like a player's job being to turn on automatic sprinklers.

Rich

Originally posted by whistleone
One thing I picked up at camp was that fans don't pay to see us officiate. They pay to see the players play. We, as officials, need to find the point at which we can call what we feel needs to be called and keep our integrity while allowing the players to do what fans pay to see.

I heard this line after ejecting a Legion coach from a baseball game this past weekend. My response was, "And nobody pays to see you show your backside and be a bad example for your players, either."

I think it is a weak line myself. I don't think there is any need whatsoever to minimize the contribution well-trained officials make to the game.

JRutledge

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I heard this line after ejecting a Legion coach from a baseball game this past weekend. My response was, "And nobody pays to see you show your backside and be a bad example for your players, either."

I think it is a weak line myself. I don't think there is any need whatsoever to minimize the contribution well-trained officials make to the game.

Good comeback. 😀

I agree. They might not come to see us officiate, but we will be around a lot longer no matter how bad they behave.

Peace

lrpalmer3

As I've been told by a couple NBA officials, you sure as hell better KNOW Kobe fouled someone when you blow the whistle. If you're only 99.9% sure Kobe affected John Doe's balance, speed, and position, you better no call it.

Yeah, it should be like that for every player but the fans don't pay to see every player.

TravelinMan

Originally posted by JRutledge

Originally posted by TerpZebra

Originally posted by JRutledge
The officials use the WNBA as a stepping stone to get to the NBA.

Obviously you do not know women's officiating or any WNBA referees. Do not assume that all officials would rather referee the NBA over WNBA.

I think you need to read the entire argument. Because the WNBA is used as a stepping stone by the NBA Officiating Program. Whether you realize it or not. The same goes for the NDBL and CBA and the many other Leagues you do not hear about that play pro ball. Of course most WNBA Officials do not want to be in the NBA and realistically, that is not going to happen anyway. There is only one Women in the NBA currently. But it is not a secret that have used WNBA Officials and moved them to the NBA. And why not, they make more money, the league is more secure and the NBA has more notoriety.

Originally posted by TerpZebra
The referees in the WNBA are just as qualified as the NBA ones.

I know that the D1 Women's officials do not have the same amount of experience as the D1 Men's Officials to accomplish the very same levels.

For the record, I know D1 Men's and D1 Women's officials right in my back yard. The fact is that the Men's officials have more years of experience to to the same place as their Women Official counterparts. The fact is that the WNBA is an option for the D1 Women's side. The NBA is not a realistic option for the Men's Officials. They either have to give up college ball and get into the NBA Program to be considered for the NBA. I understand you are sensitive to these issue, but please do not go there with me about what I know about how people get to the NBA or WNBA. I am not at all an expert, but I know the route that officials have taken to get to those levels. You do not have to know anyone to see that. But in my case, I do know many D1 current and past College Officials. And they talk about these very things all the time.

Peace

Rut, how do you know TerpZebra is not a D1 official himself? you'd look pretty silly if he was........

JRutledge

Originally posted by TravelinMan

Rut, how do you know TerpZebra is not a D1 official himself? you'd look pretty silly if he was........

So, then that is the opinion of one D1 Official. I know D1 Officials that have a desire to work in the NBA. They would do it in a heartbeat.

Peace